Thoughts on Gibson's bankruptcy and where rock is headed now.

[fraroc]

When Gibson announced that they filed chapter 11 bankruptcy protection, a lot of people in the classic rock/classic metal community saw a perfect opportunity to resurrect the whole "rock is dead/guitar music is dead and people born after 1990 killed rock n roll" meme again.

 

Gibson did it to themselves. This is a direct result of what happens when you charge a huge amount of money for guitars that aren't worth that price. A friend of mine recently practiced on both a 2017 Gibson LP and an 2017 Epiphone LP and he was pretty hard pressed to find a difference between the two. One was $599 and the other one was $2,999. And we're surprised that Gibson is going through all these financial woes?

 

While it is true that my generation has some truly repugnant music (shit like Justin Bieber, Katy Perry, Blood On The Dance Floor, mumble rap as a whole) and that we've caused rock and metal's popularity to wane, we've also been taking measures in the past few years to reverse that trend. We've helped put bands like Ghost and Greta Van Fleet on people's radars. Ghost is a pretty popular live act with a large cult following throughout the world, and Greta Van Fleet day by day is getting more notaritey and support.

 

However, 50-60 year old classic rock fans still continue to write their articles about how rock is dead, they've pretty much declared that Ghost and Greta Van Fleet suck by default just because they're new. Recently, I've learned that there really is no pleasing certain people in this community.

[Bigbobby10]

No comments on the Gibson and their bankrupts, just that it is a shame to happen.

 

Rock is not dead. Never will be.

 

There have been some great albums to come out in 2017 for rock, and 2018 will show more

[Xanadoood]

Rock music will probably never be as huge as it was back in the 70s through 90s. From my conversations with young music fans, electronic music is where it's at. They really could give a shit about organic sounding rock bands.

[Bigbobby10]

I will say though, rock has changed into a new direction mostly. Metal is still the same I would say (which i cant say for sure because I havent listened to much new metal bands)

 

 

But rock has turned more into the indie/synth-pop kind of rock. Which I dont think is bad at all. I love this new kind of music, it is so different and unique.

Edited May 6, 2018 by Bigbobby10

[Mosher]

Rock isn't dead. Rock is different. If 'rock' means Buddy Holly and Chuck Berry, then I suppose it's done. But since we tend to count rock as everything from Chuck to the Who to the Stooges to Van Halen to Soundgarden, then it isn't dead.

 

It isn't as popular, but so what. Every era has popularized terrible music, and every era has had vibrant undergrounds. Sometimes the vibrant stuff becomes huge, but the copies soon arrive and over saturate the scene. Metal is still extremely popular in its niche, and some people will popularize that guitar sound again. This is not a big deal. New styles are crucial to growth.

 

What actually happens is that old people have always lamented 'today's scene' because you never love stuff the way you did as a young adult ever again. What kills creativity more than anything is a station that won't play anything unless it's vetted first by their corporate overlords. My kids love everything from 50s to punk to ska to metal to rap to country. Because of exposure and free listening. Kids like what they get exposed to and what their friends like. Let commercial radio lead and terrible music will follow

Edited May 6, 2018 by Mosher

[Segue Myles]

Rock isn't dead. Rock is different. If 'rock' means Buddy Holly and Chuck Berry, then I suppose it's done. But since we tend to count rock as everything from Chuck to the Who to the Stooges to Van Halen to Soundgarden, then it isn't dead.

 

It isn't as popular, but so what. Every era has popularized terrible music, and every era has had vibrant undergrounds. Sometimes the vibrant stuff becomes huge, but the copies soon arrive and over saturate the scene. Metal is still extremely popular in its niche, and some people will popularize that guitar sound again. This is not a big deal. New styles are crucial to growth.

 

What actually happens is that old people have always lamented 'today's scene' because you never love stuff the way you did as a young adult ever again. What kills creativity more than anything is a station that won't play anything unless it's vetted first by their corporate overlords. My kids love everything from 50s to punk to ska to metal to rap to country. Because of exposure and free listening. Kids like what they get exposed to and what their friends like. Let commercial radio lead and terrible music will follow

 

Oh gosh I think I might want your babies!

[Lucas]

Fraroc, while I agree with you to some point that there was some mismanagement and/or bad judgments on the part of Gibson, I disagree with you on the fact that there isn;t much different between a new Epiphone and a new Gibson ..

 

Granted, buying a new Epiphone as a first ( or backup ) guitar is a very logical choice -- I bought a 2007 Epi Les Paul to take the everyday beating off my Gibsons, and while I love it, my love is relative ...

 

The electronics, wiring, pots, pickups alone are like night and day between Epi and Gibson ..

 

Where I think a new Gibson runs into some trouble is the absolute flood of used Gibson that are readily available ... Back in the 70s, for example, there was a very small pool of used Gibson guitars that could be had - if you wanted a Les Paul, you either bought a new one or went on a search at local music stores looking for a guitar that had been in production - off and on - for a handful of years ...

 

Nowadays, the ease in which you can find a used Les Paul coupled with the fact that there are now literally tens of thousands more used Gibson instruments available makes buying a new one a much more difficult choice ..

 

High price tags haven't stopped Paul Reed Smith or Fender or Dean from staying afloat ... And considering that there are so many guitar makers that are still highly successful and profitable, the call of "rock is dead" because of one company's mismanagement is complete nonsense ..

 

Gibson went thru a similar period in 1985 when every guitarist seemed to pick up some Fender-like guitar ( here's looking at you Alex Lifeson ) with a Floyd Rose ... the Gibson - esp the Les Paul - was considered passe until Slash - IMHO - single handedly made it cool to play a Les Paul again ..

 

With all that said, here's a good article that was posted today, May 6th ..

 

As the article points out, Gibson's problems have come from attempts at things like making "smart speakers" and self tuning guitars - not from building your meat-and-potatoes rock and roll instruments

 

Fortunately, there looks to be a viable path to survival for the Nashville-based company. That path involves liquidating the consumer electronics business, which is the work of a soon-to-be-defunct division called Gibson Innovation. The division's products have included headphones, speakers, and other audio equipment. If the company's plan is successful, Les Pauls and other guitars—along with the company's other professional studio audio equipment products and instruments, like Epiphone guitars and Baldwin pianos—could continue to be sold to future generations of musicians

 

https://arstechnica....tcy-protection/

Edited May 6, 2018 by Lucas

[Rick N. Backer]

Pretty simple economics. If Gibson’s sales are down, its prices are too high.

[laughedatbytime]

Pretty simple economics. If Gibson’s sales are down, its prices are too high.

Well, this is true but it could be in some sense a tautology if the product quality was down. Rush's sales were down in the synth era, but I doubt it was due to price.

Edited May 6, 2018 by laughedatbytime

[Rick N. Backer]

Pretty simple economics. If Gibson’s sales are down, its prices are too high.

Well, this is true but it could be in some sense a tautology if the product quality was down. Rush's sales were down after MP, and when PoW came out, but I doubt it was due to price.

 

But even if the quality is down, they could drop the price some more. If PoW had been available for $0.10, sales would have improved.

[laughedatbytime]

Pretty simple economics. If Gibson’s sales are down, its prices are too high.

Well, this is true but it could be in some sense a tautology if the product quality was down. Rush's sales were down after MP, and when PoW came out, but I doubt it was due to price.

 

But even if the quality is down, they could drop the price some more. If PoW had been available for $0.10, sales would have improved.

But you can't stay in business selling below marginal cost. They would have been better off improving the product. It's not like they didn't have any examples of it.

Edited May 6, 2018 by laughedatbytime

[HemiBeers]

When Gibson announced that they filed chapter 11 bankruptcy protection, a lot of people in the classic rock/classic metal community saw a perfect opportunity to resurrect the whole "rock is dead/guitar music is dead and people born after 1990 killed rock n roll" meme again.

 

Gibson did it to themselves. This is a direct result of what happens when you charge a huge amount of money for guitars that aren't worth that price. A friend of mine recently practiced on both a 2017 Gibson LP and an 2017 Epiphone LP and he was pretty hard pressed to find a difference between the two. One was $599 and the other one was $2,999. And we're surprised that Gibson is going through all these financial woes?

 

While it is true that my generation has some truly repugnant music (shit like Justin Bieber, Katy Perry, Blood On The Dance Floor, mumble rap as a whole) and that we've caused rock and metal's popularity to wane, we've also been taking measures in the past few years to reverse that trend. We've helped put bands like Ghost and Greta Van Fleet on people's radars. Ghost is a pretty popular live act with a large cult following throughout the world, and Greta Van Fleet day by day is getting more notaritey and support.

 

However, 50-60 year old classic rock fans still continue to write their articles about how rock is dead, they've pretty much declared that Ghost and Greta Van Fleet suck by default just because they're new. Recently, I've learned that there really is no pleasing certain people in this community.

I'm not getting into the new music versus old music shit-storm, because that's a never ending pissing match I don't need to deal with.

 

Didn't someone else post a thread on Gibson bankruptcy? Oh yeah it was me.

 

Gibson's problems boils down to a combination of these:

1. Less use of guitar in music, leading to less interest to play guitar by younger people.

2. De-worse-ification into goofy consumer electronics acquisitions.

3. Older Guitars being reliable and preferred by many musicians (guitars can last for years if properly cared for).

4. Gibson pricing it's models so that only the affluent (i.e. old guys with cash) can afford them.

5. Other excellent choices available in the premium Guitar market.

6. Solid inexpensive alternatives for beginner and mid-level players.

7. Inconsistent quality, even in premium Gibson models.

8. Cut-throat competition for razor thin margins in the music hardware industry.

 

Combine all of these reasons and it can be summarized simply into a macro-level issue that people aren't buying new guitars as much as they have in the past. Regardless of size, they have many challenges and will need to make significant changes to survive. As I said in my other thread, don't be surprised if they actually eliminate some product lines that aren't as profitable.

Edited May 6, 2018 by HemiBeers

[fraroc]

When Gibson announced that they filed chapter 11 bankruptcy protection, a lot of people in the classic rock/classic metal community saw a perfect opportunity to resurrect the whole "rock is dead/guitar music is dead and people born after 1990 killed rock n roll" meme again.

 

Gibson did it to themselves. This is a direct result of what happens when you charge a huge amount of money for guitars that aren't worth that price. A friend of mine recently practiced on both a 2017 Gibson LP and an 2017 Epiphone LP and he was pretty hard pressed to find a difference between the two. One was $599 and the other one was $2,999. And we're surprised that Gibson is going through all these financial woes?

 

While it is true that my generation has some truly repugnant music (shit like Justin Bieber, Katy Perry, Blood On The Dance Floor, mumble rap as a whole) and that we've caused rock and metal's popularity to wane, we've also been taking measures in the past few years to reverse that trend. We've helped put bands like Ghost and Greta Van Fleet on people's radars. Ghost is a pretty popular live act with a large cult following throughout the world, and Greta Van Fleet day by day is getting more notaritey and support.

 

However, 50-60 year old classic rock fans still continue to write their articles about how rock is dead, they've pretty much declared that Ghost and Greta Van Fleet suck by default just because they're new. Recently, I've learned that there really is no pleasing certain people in this community.

I'm not getting into the new music versus old music shit-storm, because that's a never ending pissing match I don't need to deal with.

 

Didn't someone else post a thread on Gibson bankruptcy? Oh yeah it was me.

 

Gibson's problems boils down to a combination of these:

1. Less use of guitar in music, leading to less interest to play guitar by younger people.

2. De-worse-ification into goofy consumer electronics acquisitions.

3. Older Guitars being reliable and preferred by many musicians (guitars can last for years if properly cared for).

4. Gibson pricing it's models so that only the affluent (i.e. old guys with cash) can afford them.

5. Other excellent choices available in the premium Guitar market.

6. Solid inexpensive alternatives for beginner and mid-level players.

7. Inconsistent quality, even in premium Gibson models.

8. Cut-throat competition for razor thin margins in the music hardware industry.

 

Combine all of these reasons and it can be summarized simply into a macro-level issue that people aren't buying new guitars as much as they have in the past. Regardless of size, they have many challenges and will need to make significant changes to survive. As I said in my other thread, don't be surprised if they actually eliminate some product lines that aren't as profitable.

 

 

I have a good amount of young friends who play guitar both professionally and as a hobby, each an every one of them told me that they would rather put the money down for a Schecter or an Ibanez as opposed to a Gibson.

[Rick N. Backer]

Pretty simple economics. If Gibson’s sales are down, its prices are too high.

Well, this is true but it could be in some sense a tautology if the product quality was down. Rush's sales were down after MP, and when PoW came out, but I doubt it was due to price.

 

But even if the quality is down, they could drop the price some more. If PoW had been available for $0.10, sales would have improved.

But you can't stay in business selling below marginal cost. They would have been better off improving the product. It's not like they didn't have any examples of it.

 

If everyone was buying it they could raise the price. The market would decide what the product is worth.

[laughedatbytime]

Pretty simple economics. If Gibson’s sales are down, its prices are too high.

Well, this is true but it could be in some sense a tautology if the product quality was down. Rush's sales were down after MP, and when PoW came out, but I doubt it was due to price.

 

But even if the quality is down, they could drop the price some more. If PoW had been available for $0.10, sales would have improved.

But you can't stay in business selling below marginal cost. They would have been better off improving the product. It's not like they didn't have any examples of it.

 

If everyone was buying it they could raise the price. The market would decide what the product is worth.

Of course. Part of that is that it would also determine if it would make sense for anyone to produce and sell it.

[Rick N. Backer]

Pretty simple economics. If Gibson’s sales are down, its prices are too high.

Well, this is true but it could be in some sense a tautology if the product quality was down. Rush's sales were down after MP, and when PoW came out, but I doubt it was due to price.

 

But even if the quality is down, they could drop the price some more. If PoW had been available for $0.10, sales would have improved.

But you can't stay in business selling below marginal cost. They would have been better off improving the product. It's not like they didn't have any examples of it.

 

If everyone was buying it they could raise the price. The market would decide what the product is worth.

Of course. Part of that is that it would also determine if it would make sense for anyone to produce and sell it.

 

Except for the market defeating copyright. And who the hell would want to release Emotion Detector?

[laughedatbytime]

Pretty simple economics. If Gibson’s sales are down, its prices are too high.

Well, this is true but it could be in some sense a tautology if the product quality was down. Rush's sales were down after MP, and when PoW came out, but I doubt it was due to price.

 

But even if the quality is down, they could drop the price some more. If PoW had been available for $0.10, sales would have improved.

But you can't stay in business selling below marginal cost. They would have been better off improving the product. It's not like they didn't have any examples of it.

 

If everyone was buying it they could raise the price. The market would decide what the product is worth.

Of course. Part of that is that it would also determine if it would make sense for anyone to produce and sell it.

 

Except for the market defeating copyright. And who the hell would want to release Emotion Detector?

Someone with contempt for their fans, obviously.

[RushFanForever]

bankruptcy.

[thesweetscience]

Rock is not dead.

 

If you don't see that then you aren't looking in the right places.

[grep]

Speaking of high prices, how come Rickenbacker is still afloat these days charging $2000 for a new 4003 bass???

[fraroc]

Speaking of high prices, how come Rickenbacker is still afloat these days charging $2000 for a new 4003 bass???

 

Because Rickenbacker isn't trying to give you Squier-level quality in exchange for Rickenbacker prices. That was Gibson's main problem. Epiphone quality guitars with a Gibson price tag.

Edited May 8, 2018 by fraroc

[djflex]

Just glad Debbie Gibson isn't bankrupt

[goose]

I will say though, rock has changed into a new direction mostly. Metal is still the same I would say (which i cant say for sure because I havent listened to much new metal bands)

 

 

But rock has turned more into the indie/synth-pop kind of rock. Which I dont think is bad at all. I love this new kind of music, it is so different and unique.

 

Plenty of good new organic sounding indie/alt rock out there.

[goose]

Pretty good thread here on the roots of the bankruptcy: http://www.therushforum.com/index.php?/topic/105436-gibson-considering-bankruptcy/page__st__40#entry4541836

[J2112YYZ]

Just glad Debbie Gibson isn't bankrupt

 

Well, she did pose for playboy once so I'm guessing she probably was at some point.