Gibson considering bankruptcy

[HemiBeers]

I dropped some references to Heritage in the thread, now the latest news. The new owners fired 12 production workers so they can replace them with CNC machines. The new management company is a local real estate vulture capitalist who is just chasing another buck. I guess they want to send Heritage down the shitter with Gibson. Bastards.

 

http://www.mlive.com...guitar_sou.html

Edited March 1, 2018 by HemiBeers

[Del_Duio]

Sort of related, but does anyone else like the SG over the Les Paul?

[munk]

Several years ago Gibson was raided by the Justice Dept. They seized 'exotic woods' and other assets totaling millions of dollars, and locked them out of business for an extended time.

The nation which sold Gibson the, 'exotic woods' communicated very clearly and with documentation that neither they nor Gibson had violated any protection act. Other American guitar manufacturers used the same woods as Gibson but were not interceded by Justice. It is said a CEO of Gibson donated to a Republican candidate, and this action was deliberate retaliation.

 

Gibson has not recovered from this event.

 

Are their guitars too expensive? Is their business model keyed for today? You guys know better than I about that. It doesn't take much to kill a company. Sales aren't equal to profit, and most manufacturers have a small profit margin.

 

Hope I haven't violated anything nor offended. I did not see this addressed in this thread and thought it germane. Not to bring up politics, but to answer the implied question; 'what happened to Gibson?'

 

DNA is the Elder Scrolls

 

munk

[edhunter]

So Obama killed Gibson....

[munk]

Read about it.

 

I just want my electric light bulbs back....

 

 

 

munk

[edhunter]

Read about it.

 

I just want my electric light bulbs back....

 

 

 

munk

 

Oh I believe you. Obama use the government as a weapon against a lot of conservative groups.

[munk]

I'm not getting into that. It's important, I thought, to know Gibson took an enormous hit financially, by intervention of the Federal Government, right or wrong, regardless of how one feels about Gibson or the Govt, OK? It does not matter. It was a huge blow.

 

Whatever their market model was, they apparently never recovered from the loss.

[HemiBeers]

I'm not getting into that. It's important, I thought, to know Gibson took an enormous hit financially, by intervention of the Federal Government, right or wrong, regardless of how one feels about Gibson or the Govt, OK? It does not matter. It was a huge blow.

 

Whatever their market model was, they apparently never recovered from the loss.

that's an excuse and deflection. Obama or the government never forced Gibson into taking on massive debt and acquisitions they couldn't pay for. They f***ed themselves.

[Geddy Jazz]

I think they never adapted to modern era instrument making competitive world ( rest on their laurels) as other companies have done it.....and irresponsible debt aquisition...when 5 is turning the red lights on, they let it grew up to 10 ( double the red zone mark!!)..... :codger:

[munk]

The Professor;

 

I figured someone might say it wasn't fair I'd introduced politics into the post about money troubles for Gibson. I can't talk about politics here, right? But I knew if I 'merely' posted they'd gotten in trouble with Justice over violation of a protection act, many would take that at face value and think worse of Gibson. That's 'politics' also, by being passive. There was that, and knowing someonelse would come along and post and take the heat perhaps I should have. If I was 'cagey' that what I'd have done.

 

Like it or not; the 'bias' version is noted here because it exists and has a place. Particularly as nothing had been mentioned in the thread about the issue.

That's about as honest as I can be in this forum. Perhaps one day I'll have the requirements met, to talk with you in the political section. Sincerely. There is little better than honorable debate about episodes and ideas.

 

Geddy Jazz, your post reminded me of the baseball star and the video game, Reckoning, They too, overextended waay too soon and then got into political trouble also.

 

I can't remember the baseball star's name, he was a good guy, He actually tried to hire the best talent, with the intention of building the best open world game ever.

I admired him, and I admire Gibson, and am sorry to see bad tiding for good intentions.

 

I can't imagine a world without Gibson guitar, I don't want to imagine it, and I don't even play guitar.

 

DNA is the Elder Scrolls

munk

[HemiBeers]

The Professor;

 

I figured someone might say it wasn't fair I'd introduced politics into the post about money troubles for Gibson. I can't talk about politics here, right? But I knew if I 'merely' posted they'd gotten in trouble with Justice over violation of a protection act, many would take that at face value and think worse of Gibson. That's 'politics' also, by being passive. There was that, and knowing someonelse would come along and post and take the heat perhaps I should have. If I was 'cagey' that what I'd have done.

 

Like it or not; the 'bias' version is noted here because it exists and has a place. Particularly as nothing had been mentioned in the thread about the issue.

That's about as honest as I can be in this forum. Perhaps one day I'll have the requirements met, to talk with you in the political section. Sincerely. There is little better than honorable debate about episodes and ideas.

 

Geddy Jazz, your post reminded me of the baseball star and the video game, Reckoning, They too, overextended waay too soon and then got into political trouble also.

 

I can't remember the baseball star's name, he was a good guy, He actually tried to hire the best talent, with the intention of building the best open world game ever.

I admired him, and I admire Gibson, and am sorry to see bad tiding for good intentions.

 

I can't imagine a world without Gibson guitar, I don't want to imagine it, and I don't even play guitar.

 

DNA is the Elder Scrolls

munk

Rather then reading your Peart-esque non-stop rambling, here's a link with some facts about the raid.

 

http://articles.lati...guitar-20140215

 

Points being:

Gibson was able to take advantage of the returned materials and sell them as special 'Government Series' instruments..at likely increased prices.

Gibson claimed the raid cost them $5m. Giving they could profit from the controversy and that they are a $1B company, the raid was chump change for a company that size (given an assumption it did cost them $5m...which I call bullshit).

"The National Assn. of Music Merchants supported Gibson, but not everyone was on the guitar maker's side during the controversy. Guitar maker C.F. Martin & Co. and wood distributor North American Wood Products spoke in support of the Lacey Act amendments, saying they help the environment and American companies." So if Martin and other manufacturers can adapt to regulations, why couldn't Gibson? Probably because Gibson took the known gamble on getting cheaper materials.

 

Any points about the raid damaging Gibson is total Bullshit. They f***ed themselves by poor management and overextending.

Edited March 18, 2018 by HemiBeers

[munk]

Professor, are you certain I won't get in trouble if I go into this? I only have like 16 posts. The Govt did not charge Gibson with a crime, for a year, or over a year,don't recall exactly, yet held their property. Does this sound like our constitutional republic to you? When the Govt arrived to conduct business with Gibson, it was to kick in doors and weapons drawn. Is this usual behavior for our Govt today? I hope not. I see you're comfortable dismissing the issue and accepting the Govt's prima facie position. I'm not. The Govt charged Gibson finally with violation not of American Law, but violating two other nation's own laws regarding export and import. Not only did these nations say this wasn't true, and had documentation, but other manufacturers successfully imported the same products.

 

I'm a libertarian, Professor, and I've been watching governmental abuse for decades. It goes across party lines and is a disease threatening our representative government. When the Govt screws up, Left, Right, Middle or in other dimension, I believe we should be able to see it. What our Government did to Gibson was abuse of power under color of authority, probably denial of constitutional rights, and delivered to them a crippling financial blow. It is fine with me you disagree. It was important that folks know there were two sides to this issue, and that Gibson never really got over the Govt's actions.

 

This thread, populated by people fond of Gibson, (fair to say?) will miss Gibson if they go. I don't mind speaking out, but won't participate should this thread become 'marred' by a political squall at the end of its pages.

I've squalled enough in life. Really.

 

 

DNA is the Elder Scrolls

munk.

[munk]

Sorry for this,but see one cannot edit posts, so this is a post script; The 'violation' of foreign laws' were part of the investigation, but Gibson settled with the Govt over a violation of the 1900 Lacy Act. Interestingly, the Lacy Act was amended two months before the raid, where supply-side reporting provisions were inserted, which changed the definition of, 'fingerboard blanks',by which Gibson was addressed by the federal govt.

 

 

 

DNA is the Elder Scrolls.

 

wow, you can edit posts...

 

munk.

Edited March 18, 2018 by munk

[stoopid]

"Montana"... they like conspiracies and doing what the f%^$ they want. A lot of Trumplandia. Edited March 19, 2018 by stoopid

[munk]

Really? Montana is what happened to Gibson? Trump happened to Gibson?

 

Montana is a liberal state. Legislature, Courts and Governor.

 

It's like saying if you live in New York you enjoy polluting the Hudson, or perhaps a little afternoon mugging....

Edited March 19, 2018 by munk

[stoopid]

Looks very "liberal" to me...

 

https://www.nytimes....results/montana

 

But yes, it does appear you have a couple token dems in a few seats at the local levels. Whereas New York (as you mentioned), is the exact opposite. More local Republican presence due to Upstate, but the State as a whole goes Democrat for the bigger elections.

 

I'm poking fun at you being the quintessential Montanian. Like Alabama, with a touch more smarts.

Edited March 19, 2018 by stoopid

[munk]

Thanks, Mocking a State is like making fun of some one's clothes, or face, or color, and politics....you know where it leads. Anger Nation. I don't care what State I'm in, but don't want to live in Anger Nation. I don't even like visiting.

 

It's the ideas and events I like. If people don't believe Gibson's troubles with the Federal Government affected business, that's their opinion. Mine may be different.

But people shouldn't be pressured just because the Raid on Gibson was offered as additional consideration. And it was offered politely.

 

Are only some points of view encouraged? Only the 'right' "data"?

 

 

Are conclusions 'foregone', then, we really aren't talking about anything? We're just taking turns on a soap box like a Congressman on CSPAN?

 

..........

 

I'm trying to remember where Faulkner lived in the South. The joke about Alabama....Does anyone remember that the Southern United States had a lyrical literary excellence?

 

Election results; yes, but that's just this last cycle. Generally, the State is run by Democrats and elects a Republican to the Presidency.

Edited March 19, 2018 by munk

[1-0-0-1-0-0-1]

Professor, are you certain I won't get in trouble if I go into this? I only have like 16 posts.

 

This topic can get into politics ONLY if those politics pertain directly to Gibson's financial troubles. Any political talk outside of that belongs in Sense O'Clock News. We're starting to veer in that direction now so this is a good time to dial it back.

[stoopid]

It's the ideas and events I like. If people don't believe Gibson's troubles with the Federal Government affected business, that's their opinion. Mine may be different.

But people shouldn't be pressured just because the Raid on Gibson was offered as additional consideration. And it was offered politely.

 

Are only some points of view encouraged? Only the 'right' "data"?

 

I think when points like "5 million is a small percent of 1 Billion total revenue" are ignored/glazed over, the conversation (at least from a basic math standpoint) is over.

 

Any suggestion that the government of the united states was the cause of Gibson's fall assumes...

 

1) 5 million is an accurate figure, but 1 billion is not

2) The federal government has ever gone out of its way to inflict harm on adversaries [this has become an increasingly tired trope in the past few years of the conspiracy driven]

3) Gibson didn't actually violate the law, knowingly, and like most kids caught with their hand in the cookie jar blame satan for making them do it

4) Gibson's management and strategies were on a course proven to propel the company towards success

Edited March 19, 2018 by stoopid

[munk]

Does one have to believe that the Federal Govt was the cause of Gibson's fall? There is no room in thy philosophy, Horatio, for its inclusion as yet another factor,? Why all or nothing?

 

 

No mention of the time Gibson went without charges, or of confiscation of assets, or of continuing a legal battle against the United States govt?

 

Any summation of the settlement between gibson and govt does not address other issues, such as lost time, goods unavailable, etc, but is used as reference by people believing the raid had minimal impact. Trouble with this point of view is that the settlement does not enumerate Gibson's losses as it defended itself from the Govt.

 

To dismiss the troubles between Gibson and the Govt as, 'tired trope in the past few years from the conspiracy driven." Ignores the recent IRS admission it targeted conservative groups.

 

Strange indeed, when no other guitar companies were charged, while they had the same supplies.

 

 

As I've said from the beginning of Time Itself, just kidding, my reason for bringing the raid and legal trouble to our attention was its inclusion in Gibson's demise. It belonged in a, will Gibson go bankrupt? thread.

 

I believe it is a major reason Gibson is staggering. After reading many excellent posts here, I have to also wonder if Gibson had trouble finding its way in the always changing markets.

[HemiBeers]

Does one have to believe that the Federal Govt was the cause of Gibson's fall? There is no room in thy philosophy, Horatio, for its inclusion as yet another factor,? Why all or nothing?

 

 

No mention of the time Gibson went without charges, or of confiscation of assets, or of continuing a legal battle against the United States govt?

 

Any summation of the settlement between gibson and govt does not address other issues, such as lost time, goods unavailable, etc, but is used as reference by people believing the raid had minimal impact. Trouble with this point of view is that the settlement does not enumerate Gibson's losses as it defended itself from the Govt.

 

To dismiss the troubles between Gibson and the Govt as, 'tired trope in the past few years from the conspiracy driven." Ignores the recent IRS admission it targeted conservative groups.

 

Strange indeed, when no other guitar companies were charged, while they had the same supplies.

 

 

As I've said from the beginning of Time Itself, just kidding, my reason for bringing the raid and legal trouble to our attention was its inclusion in Gibson's demise. It belonged in a, will Gibson go bankrupt? thread.

 

I believe it is a major reason Gibson is staggering. After reading many excellent posts here, I have to also wonder if Gibson had trouble finding its way in the always changing markets.

You're either a Gibson company troll or a conspiracy theorist drumming up your yawn-inducing daydreams while unable to comprehend simple facts.

 

Done with you. Over it.

Edited March 19, 2018 by HemiBeers

[stoopid]

To dismiss the troubles between Gibson and the Govt as, 'tired trope in the past few years from the conspiracy driven." Ignores the recent IRS admission it targeted conservative groups.

 

Precisely why it's dismissed/ignored.

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=irs+targeting+conservative+groups+debunked&oq=irs+targeted+conservative+groups

[munk]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/billfrezza/2014/05/26/lumber-union-protectionists-incited-swat-raid-on-my-factory-says-gibson-guitar-ceo/#603b87d22434

 

Professor, do you insist I must choose between your considering me either a Gibson company troll or a conspiracy theorist? BTW, I like to call them; "New World Order Conspiratorialists."

 

The tangential nature is who I am. Its not a front, a tool, nor is it intended to be as boring as, 'a bag of wind'. It's never called you a name or a label, though; a line you haven't been able to refrain from crossing in our discussion.

 

What perplexes me is not how much impact the raid and subsequent actions had on Gibson, we could figure that out in good faith, but why you wish to minimize the impact, and at first wanted to dismiss the entire issue?

 

I did not nor do not want to be a protagonist of Gibson. The overly defensive response from you about any inclusion of the Raid put me and others on the spot. I went out of my way to not play into any anti Obama stuff, and I resisted politization (sic) from you and both sides.

 

I just wish I wasn't so stiff, and forgotten so much about how to talk to people.

 

munk

[munk]

Dear stoopid, thanks for the overwhelming display of links. Honestly, I liked them. Here is my conflict; on one hand I've read from multiple sources that IRS apologized and admitted targeting conservative groups. I thought that was in a place of importance, court, congress, official.

Your links seriously suggest, and I mean seriously, the opposite. So I'm sitting here, thinking, do I really have to take on every issue thrown my way because I dared to bring up Gibson's troubles?

What else am I responsible for? Peace in the Middle East?

 

But if I was going down that rabbit hole, to research your links and the truth, first thing I'd start with was whether or not the studies or reviews of the IRS were speaking in general regarding population groups, or were specific to the conservative groups denied process? Mass shootings, or restaurant food poisonings don't always impact crime/health stats significantly, either, but we feel them. That conservative groups were targeted during certain administrations does not mean that a category 'conservative' under IRS review saw any meaningful statistical changes.

 

But that's just where Id start. I'm tired, stoopid, I'm not young and fast and adroit like you. Ever read that Bukowski poem where he'd like to accomplish all these great things, but got, "sleepy in the afternoon"?

 

I'm not carrying the mantel for any side or politic. If you guys think you've found a noble enemy, you're wrong. I like people. I like them even when I disagree with their decisions. I don't care what politics human beings have, But I'll keep entering into this Body Politic, social and spiritual, such data as I deem vital.

 

I always thought it fine when more information helped people see things more clearly.

 

I really can't stop rambling, can I?

 

DNA is the Elder Scrolls

[1-0-0-1-0-0-1]

https://www.forbes.c...o/#603b87d22434

 

Professor, do you insist I must choose between your considering me either a Gibson company troll or a conspiracy theorist? BTW, I like to call them; "New World Order Conspiratorialists."

 

The tangential nature is who I am. Its not a front, a tool, nor is it intended to be as boring as, 'a bag of wind'. It's never called you a name or a label, though; a line you haven't been able to refrain from crossing in our discussion.

 

Unless I'm missing something from earlier in the thread, why are you calling him "Professor?" (And by "him" I assume you're talking to HemiBeers?)