Noob to the forum: what is this time sig change in "The Trees?"

[JARG]

Please give an example of "Free Time" composition.

 

The intro to this song.

 

http://youtu.be/oWOe_Z248ls

 

I'm quite certain the composer had no time signature in mind when that part was written nor did he intend the part to be in strict time.

[launchpad67a]

If my comments on learning to count have offended anyone in this thread, then so be it. My goal was not to offend or be condescending (or pretentious) towards anyone. My comments were only meant to emphasize the importance of learning to count, and the benefits of keeping better time by learning to count.

It is the most fundamental part of music. So when someone says it's not important or needed, I take notice and try to correct that disbelief. I was not saying you suck if you can't count, I was only saying you will be a better musician if you learn to count properly.

 

Also, as others have mentioned, once you learn to count you don't use it all the time. It becomes second nature and an internal device in your head that's always running. Everyone "feels" things differently. But if everyone knows how to count, at least everyone has a better chance of playing together.

Counting, Time, Tempo and Rhythm are all different, but they are absolutely connected.

Imagine someone saying, that note needs to be played on the "& of 1". If you know how to count, then you know exactly where the "& of 1" is.

[JARG]

If my comments on learning to count have offended anyone in this thread, then so be it. My goal was not to offend or be condescending (or pretentious) towards anyone.

I'm glad that that wasn't your goal. What was you goal with the "so be it" comment? Do you see how that comment might be taken by some folks as condescending? I'm not asking to be snarky. I'm just wondering if you'd be willing to "step outside yourself" and see some of your comments from others' points of view.

My comments were only meant to emphasize the importance of learning to count, and the benefits of keeping better time by learning to count.

It is the most fundamental part of music.

And that's a fine point. Counting can be very useful and for me it has been indispensable at times. I think perhaps if you'd made that point and gone no further, you probably wouldn't have had to write the post I'm responding to right now. But you did go further, you said, "If you've been playing a song for years and never realized it was in 5/4 for instance, then you really haven't been playing the song in-time, unless you count the notes in the measures."

That's just flat-out wrong. If you've been playing a song in 5/4 and never realized it was in 5/4, you've still been playing the song, and if you've got good timing, then you've been playing it in time.. There's no other way to skin that cat.

So when someone says it's not important or needed, I take notice and try to correct that disbelief.

It's not needed. There's nothing to correct about that statement. Being able to count out beats can be important, critically important in certain applications (sight-reading, for example), but it's not a universally required skill.

I was not saying you suck if you can't count, I was only saying you will be a better musician if you learn to count properly.

Folks disagree with that claim. What you (and perhaps many others) need to be a better player might not be what the next guy needs. I could easily say, "you need to learn to play by ear if you want to be a better musician", but I'd be just as wrong. None of this is "one size fits all".

Also, as others have mentioned, once you learn to count you don't use it all the time. It becomes second nature and an internal device in your head that's always running.

Hmmm...I don't know if it's always running with me. I think it's more likely that once I've learned a part that I had to count, I turn off the counter so I can focus on other aspects of the performance.

Everyone "feels" things differently. But if everyone knows how to count, at least everyone has a better chance of playing together.

Counting, Time, Tempo and Rhythm are all different, but they are absolutely connected.

Imagine someone saying, that note needs to be played on the "& of 1". If you know how to count, then you know exactly where the "& of 1" is.

Yes, being able to count is very helpful in certain situations.

[launchpad67a]

If my comments on learning to count have offended anyone in this thread, then so be it. My goal was not to offend or be condescending (or pretentious) towards anyone.

I'm glad that that wasn't your goal. What was you goal with the "so be it" comment? Do you see how that comment might be taken by some folks as condescending? I'm not asking to be snarky. I'm just wondering if you'd be willing to "step outside yourself" and see some of your comments from others' points of view.

My comments were only meant to emphasize the importance of learning to count, and the benefits of keeping better time by learning to count.

It is the most fundamental part of music.

And that's a fine point. Counting can be very useful and for me it has been indispensable at times. I think perhaps if you'd made that point and gone no further, you probably wouldn't have had to write the post I'm responding to right now. But you did go further, you said, "If you've been playing a song for years and never realized it was in 5/4 for instance, then you really haven't been playing the song in-time, unless you count the notes in the measures."

That's just flat-out wrong. If you've been playing a song in 5/4 and never realized it was in 5/4, you've still been playing the song, and if you've got good timing, then you've been playing it in time.. There's no other way to skin that cat.

So when someone says it's not important or needed, I take notice and try to correct that disbelief.

It's not needed. There's nothing to correct about that statement. Being able to count out beats can be important, critically important in certain applications (sight-reading, for example), but it's not a universally required skill.

I was not saying you suck if you can't count, I was only saying you will be a better musician if you learn to count properly.

Folks disagree with that claim. What you (and perhaps many others) need to be a better player might not be what the next guy needs. I could easily say, "you need to learn to play by ear if you want to be a better musician", but I'd be just as wrong. None of this is "one size fits all".

Also, as others have mentioned, once you learn to count you don't use it all the time. It becomes second nature and an internal device in your head that's always running.

Hmmm...I don't know if it's always running with me. I think it's more likely that once I've learned a part that I had to count, I turn off the counter so I can focus on other aspects of the performance.

Everyone "feels" things differently. But if everyone knows how to count, at least everyone has a better chance of playing together.

Counting, Time, Tempo and Rhythm are all different, but they are absolutely connected.

Imagine someone saying, that note needs to be played on the "& of 1". If you know how to count, then you know exactly where the "& of 1" is.

Yes, being able to count is very helpful in certain situations.

Fair enough JARG. All points taken and understood, and I appreciate the feedback.

I won't address each of your replies, but one I will.

I could have said, "I apologize" instead of "so be it", but I'm not going to apologize for telling musicians to learn to count. For anyone to claim that learning to count is not needed, or it won't make them a better player, is just plain wrong. It's Wrong! That is not my opinion. It's the way professionals are taught, and to think otherwise is foolish.

Honestly I can't believe this is an argument from ANY musician. It's music 101, and it's a real shame people think otherwise. I've been shaking my head since the first reply, and there's nothing more for me to say to anyone who doesn't think that learning to count is absolutely crucial to playing music well.

Sorry, I will not mince my words when it's such a fundamental argument.

[CygnusX-1Bk2]

Please give an example of "Free Time" composition. Improvisation is not free from time nor time signature. One cannot add a time signature after the fact. A piece of music is in a time signature. That is not to say a composer/writer had a preconceived notion of what the time signature is. In fact I will go as far to say that Rush have written the majority of their songs NOT knowing what the time signature is. That doesn't mean there isn't one.

 

I think what Goose is saying (and he can correct me if I'm wrong) is that parts are often "written" during jam sessions without thinking about what time sig they're in, and only afterwards when the writer "does the math" does the time sig emerge.

 

Take the muted riff that Alex plays after the middle keyboard section of "Jacob's Ladder." I doubt Alex thought about writing a riff in alternating measures of 6/8 and 7/8 (or, 13/8) and then tried to shoehorn in notes to fit them. I'm sure the notes just fell that way naturally and it just happened to be in those odd time sigs.

 

Of course, once such a riff has been written, it's easier to show someone else how to play it if you know the time sig and can count it out. Picture Alex showing that riff to Geddy for the first time: "Both patterns are similar. This first one is in 6, and then it repeats but adds this extra note at the end, so it's in 7. Then the two patterns repeat. Neil will have to come up with some f**ked up drum part to fit it, but that's his problem."

That is not what he said, that's your interpretation (which I understood at the outset, I'm just busting balls at this point because I like too. ;)). Perhaps I am a stickler for language and syntax. Either way, regardless of playing off the top of one's head and/or improvising, such as the way that Rush write, the time signature is not added after the fact. It exists as soon as a player plays. Whether they can articulate it or not.

Edited May 17, 2016 by CygnusX-1Bk2

[CygnusX-1Bk2]

Please give an example of "Free Time" composition. Improvisation is not free from time nor time signature. One cannot add a time signature after the fact. A piece of music is in a time signature. That is not to say a composer/writer had a preconceived notion of what the time signature is. In fact I will go as far to say that Rush have written the majority of their songs NOT knowing what the time signature is. That doesn't mean there isn't one.

On Miles Davis classic album Kind of Blue, he first cut, So What, begins in free time. It's not until the bass enters that a discernible time signature exists.

Let me clarify; show me that page please. :) I'd like to see how it's written.

Edited May 17, 2016 by CygnusX-1Bk2

[CygnusX-1Bk2]

Let's play this:

http://www.boosey.com/imagesw/print/Music/$wm1_0x700_$_M060026959_mus.jpg

:)

[1-0-0-1-0-0-1]

Please give an example of "Free Time" composition. Improvisation is not free from time nor time signature. One cannot add a time signature after the fact. A piece of music is in a time signature. That is not to say a composer/writer had a preconceived notion of what the time signature is. In fact I will go as far to say that Rush have written the majority of their songs NOT knowing what the time signature is. That doesn't mean there isn't one.

 

I think what Goose is saying (and he can correct me if I'm wrong) is that parts are often "written" during jam sessions without thinking about what time sig they're in, and only afterwards when the writer "does the math" does the time sig emerge.

 

Take the muted riff that Alex plays after the middle keyboard section of "Jacob's Ladder." I doubt Alex thought about writing a riff in alternating measures of 6/8 and 7/8 (or, 13/8) and then tried to shoehorn in notes to fit them. I'm sure the notes just fell that way naturally and it just happened to be in those odd time sigs.

 

Of course, once such a riff has been written, it's easier to show someone else how to play it if you know the time sig and can count it out. Picture Alex showing that riff to Geddy for the first time: "Both patterns are similar. This first one is in 6, and then it repeats but adds this extra note at the end, so it's in 7. Then the two patterns repeat. Neil will have to come up with some f**ked up drum part to fit it, but that's his problem."

That is not what he said, that's your interpretation (which I understood at the outset, I'm just busting balls at this point because I like too. ;)). Perhaps I am a stickler for language and syntax. Either way, regardless of playing off the top of one's head and/or improvising, such as the way that Rush write, the time signature is not added after the fact. It exists as soon as a player plays. Whether they can articulate it or not.

 

Yes of course, the time sig exists as soon as they play it, but in most cases guys like Geddy and Alex don't have time sigs in mind as they're jamming. Later on they'll discover that a riff they came up with is in 7/8 or whatever.

 

Semantics, syntax, context, etc. -- seems a lot of this discussion has some of us not quite on the same page, at least as far as how we're wording things. In the end, not a big deal.

[1-0-0-1-0-0-1]

Let's play this:

http://www.boosey.com/imagesw/print/Music/$wm1_0x700_$_M060026959_mus.jpg

:)

 

Why do you hate 4/4???

[stoopid]

Stravinsky is overrated. :D

[HemiBeers]

If my comments on learning to count have offended anyone in this thread, then so be it. My goal was not to offend or be condescending (or pretentious) towards anyone.

I'm glad that that wasn't your goal. What was you goal with the "so be it" comment? Do you see how that comment might be taken by some folks as condescending? I'm not asking to be snarky. I'm just wondering if you'd be willing to "step outside yourself" and see some of your comments from others' points of view.

My comments were only meant to emphasize the importance of learning to count, and the benefits of keeping better time by learning to count.

It is the most fundamental part of music.

And that's a fine point. Counting can be very useful and for me it has been indispensable at times. I think perhaps if you'd made that point and gone no further, you probably wouldn't have had to write the post I'm responding to right now. But you did go further, you said, "If you've been playing a song for years and never realized it was in 5/4 for instance, then you really haven't been playing the song in-time, unless you count the notes in the measures."

That's just flat-out wrong. If you've been playing a song in 5/4 and never realized it was in 5/4, you've still been playing the song, and if you've got good timing, then you've been playing it in time.. There's no other way to skin that cat.

So when someone says it's not important or needed, I take notice and try to correct that disbelief.

It's not needed. There's nothing to correct about that statement. Being able to count out beats can be important, critically important in certain applications (sight-reading, for example), but it's not a universally required skill.

I was not saying you suck if you can't count, I was only saying you will be a better musician if you learn to count properly.

Folks disagree with that claim. What you (and perhaps many others) need to be a better player might not be what the next guy needs. I could easily say, "you need to learn to play by ear if you want to be a better musician", but I'd be just as wrong. None of this is "one size fits all".

Also, as others have mentioned, once you learn to count you don't use it all the time. It becomes second nature and an internal device in your head that's always running.

Hmmm...I don't know if it's always running with me. I think it's more likely that once I've learned a part that I had to count, I turn off the counter so I can focus on other aspects of the performance.

Everyone "feels" things differently. But if everyone knows how to count, at least everyone has a better chance of playing together.

Counting, Time, Tempo and Rhythm are all different, but they are absolutely connected.

Imagine someone saying, that note needs to be played on the "& of 1". If you know how to count, then you know exactly where the "& of 1" is.

Yes, being able to count is very helpful in certain situations.

Fair enough JARG. All points taken and understood, and I appreciate the feedback.

I won't address each of your replies, but one I will.

I could have said, "I apologize" instead of "so be it", but I'm not going to apologize for telling musicians to learn to count. For anyone to claim that learning to count is not needed, or it won't make them a better player, is just plain wrong. It's Wrong! That is not my opinion. It's the way professionals are taught, and to think otherwise is foolish.

Honestly I can't believe this is an argument from ANY musician. It's music 101, and it's a real shame people think otherwise. I've been shaking my head since the first reply, and there's nothing more for me to say to anyone who doesn't think that learning to count is absolutely crucial to playing music well.

Sorry, I will not mince my words when it's such a fundamental argument.

Your www.azwebdesigns.com link doesn't work. I tried more than one browser just to be sure. So what kind of discount do we get for a web site that doesn't work at all?

[goose]

Please give an example of "Free Time" composition. Improvisation is not free from time nor time signature. One cannot add a time signature after the fact. A piece of music is in a time signature. That is not to say a composer/writer had a preconceived notion of what the time signature is. In fact I will go as far to say that Rush have written the majority of their songs NOT knowing what the time signature is. That doesn't mean there isn't one.

On Miles Davis classic album Kind of Blue, he first cut, So What, begins in free time. It's not until the bass enters that a discernible time signature exists.

Let me clarify; show me that page please. :) I'd like to see how it's written.

Here's a discussion of the intro. More around the musical structure rather than the rhythm, but interesting nonetheless, http://freejazzinstitute.com/showposts.php?dept=discussions&topic=20081213185027_GreggG

 

There's a transcription that puts the intro in common time, in line with the rest of the song, which begins with the bass line (another transcription of that is included). But the intro is not played that way, and assigning 4/4 to it seems incidental and a transcriber's decision.

 

Along the lines of counting, I bet there are plenty of guitarists and drummers that can play Black Dog but have no idea where "1" falls. Not sure it matters.

[CygnusX-1Bk2]

Let's play this:

http://www.boosey.com/imagesw/print/Music/$wm1_0x700_$_M060026959_mus.jpg

:)

 

Why do you hate 4/4???

There are bars of 3/16 and 1/16 when you get into the score. It is near impossible to play.

[CygnusX-1Bk2]

Along the lines of counting, I bet there are plenty of guitarists and drummers that can play Black Dog but have no idea where "1" falls. Not sure it matters.

Yeah, Black Dog can be very nebulous. When measures collide!

 

BTW, I am giggling like a little girl through all of this. :)

 

Edited May 17, 2016 by CygnusX-1Bk2

[HemiBeers]

Along the lines of counting, I bet there are plenty of guitarists and drummers that can play Black Dog but have no idea where "1" falls. Not sure it matters.

Yeah, Black Dog can be very nebulous. When measures collide!

 

BTW, I am giggling like a little girl through all of this. :)

 

Black Dog...don't think, just play.

[goose]

Along the lines of counting, I bet there are plenty of guitarists and drummers that can play Black Dog but have no idea where "1" falls. Not sure it matters.

Yeah, Black Dog can be very nebulous. When measures collide!

 

BTW, I am giggling like a little girl through all of this. :)

 

For me it's one of the more interesting recent threads. I dig music theory and the idea of art vs science, heart vs mind. I'm surprised RUSH hasn't written a song about that...

[RobK]

If my comments on learning to count have offended anyone in this thread, then so be it. My goal was not to offend or be condescending (or pretentious) towards anyone. My comments were only meant to emphasize the importance of learning to count, and the benefits of keeping better time by learning to count.

It is the most fundamental part of music. So when someone says it's not important or needed, I take notice and try to correct that disbelief. I was not saying you suck if you can't count, I was only saying you will be a better musician if you learn to count properly.

 

Also, as others have mentioned, once you learn to count you don't use it all the time. It becomes second nature and an internal device in your head that's always running. Everyone "feels" things differently. But if everyone knows how to count, at least everyone has a better chance of playing together.

Counting, Time, Tempo and Rhythm are all different, but they are absolutely connected.

Imagine someone saying, that note needs to be played on the "& of 1". If you know how to count, then you know exactly where the "& of 1" is.

 

A civilized gentleman can pretend to be a savage madman, the savage madman cannot pretend to be a civilized gentleman.

 

In particular, when a drummer that doesn't know where they are in a measure/time signature/song gets lost... it's an absolute mess. Maybe it just comes down to personal standards?

[RobK]

Along the lines of counting, I bet there are plenty of guitarists and drummers that can play Black Dog but have no idea where "1" falls. Not sure it matters.

Yeah, Black Dog can be very nebulous. When measures collide!

 

BTW, I am giggling like a little girl through all of this. :)

 

For me it's one of the more interesting recent threads. I dig music theory and the idea of art vs science, heart vs mind. I'm surprised RUSH hasn't written a song about that...

 

Didn't they? I thought they ended up united in a single, perfect… sphere. :drool:

[1-0-0-1-0-0-1]

Let's play this:

http://www.boosey.com/imagesw/print/Music/$wm1_0x700_$_M060026959_mus.jpg

:)

 

Why do you hate 4/4???

There are bars of 3/16 and 1/16 when you get into the score. It is near impossible to play.

 

What is the purpose of having a measure of 1/16 (or 1/8 or 1/4) in the middle of a score? Why does that beat have to be put into its own separate measure? Why can't it be added to the measure before? I guess I'd need to see the score to understand.

[CygnusX-1Bk2]

Not only are there single bars of 1/16, but that is for particular instruments. The score is absolutely bizarre. Which is one reason it is near impossible to play. The first performances were tragically bad to the point there was booing and people leaving the theater because the orchestra just couldn't comprehend it.

 

So of course Disney put it in Fantasia...

[JARG]

Speaking of counting, here's a snippet of a buddy's song that he had me do some guitar work for, which required me to count out the time sig. This is just bass and drums. How do you guys count it?

 

https://soundcloud.com/cabbage2112/drive-snip-bass-and-drums/s-Xa1pf

[CygnusX-1Bk2]

7/4 or a bar of 4/4 followed by a bar of 3/4

[RobK]

7/4 or a bar of 4/4 followed by a bar of 3/4

 

Too quick. Agree. In context I say 7/4.

[goose]

Not only are there single bars of 1/16, but that is for particular instruments. The score is absolutely bizarre. Which is one reason it is near impossible to play. The first performances were tragically bad to the point there was booing and people leaving the theater because the orchestra just couldn't comprehend it.

 

So of course Disney put it in Fantasia...

This is a pretty cool breakdown of some of it...

 

[JARG]

Part of it is indeed in 7. Here's just the click.

 

https://soundcloud.c...t-click/s-4PXsK

 

There's an 8 count lead-in, so counting from when the drums start, it's a measure of 8/8, a measure of 7/8, a measure of 1/16, and then it settles into the 7/8 figure.

 

And here's the same thing with the click and the guitar part I came up with.

 

https://soundcloud.c...s-click/s-4yHvF