Sellouts! - What's your definition of a "sellout"?

[Slime]

I'm doing some research for a piece I hope to write soon, and (if it's alright with the powers that be) I'd like to ask the board members a few questions

 

It's all about bands and musicians who have "sold out".

 

No need to be too formal or anything, but say as much as you like (I won't link to this board or name any board members in the piece I write)

 

 

Here we go!

 

1. What does "selling out" mean in the world of music?

2. Who, in your opinion, has "sold out"? What do you point to as their "sellout" moments?

3. Does anybody come back from "selling out", or is it a permanent stain on the act's career?

4. What sorts of actions would constitute "selling out", whether or not somebody you've named in your answer #2 did that or not?

5. Tell me anything else that might be pertinent to the idea of "selling out"

 

 

Thanks for any and all answers you guys give!

[Day of Light]

A sellout is an artist who begins making music that the media, record company, or critics want as opposed to music that they or their fans want them to make. They are not trying to reach a public that they personally think they will connect with--they're just trying to reach the public that will make them money based on strict data analysis.

 

I don't associate selling out with fame or even with bands changing their sound to reach a wider audience; it has to do specifically with suppressing creativity in the name of fame, money, convenience. It also has to do with being inconsiderate of their original fanbase.

 

Rush would've "sold out" at two moments in their career: if they'd made a pop record after Caress of Steel like their record company wanted them to, and also if they'd just made Moving Pictures 2.0 after Moving Pictures instead of working on and developing their sound. To a lesser extent, they would've sold out if they'd played in giant arenas instead of the smaller venues their original fanbase was used to after the release of Permanent Waves. Allegedly they could've made millions off of that but chose not to--this is the antithesis of selling out.

 

Generally speaking I find that "selling out" is quite uncommon in art and music. An example of a band that sold out would be Dream Theater with the release of Falling Into Infinity, which was a more "mainstream" sound at the demands of their record company. I quite like this record, and I do think they recovered splendidly from it, going back to a sound that they are more happy with, and never (as far as I know) selling out again.

 

An artist that sold out is Lady Gaga. She gave up her cute brunette New York Italian bar singer girl thing to go platinum blonde, sing pop songs designed to go popular, and made it big in less than a year despite being in the industry for several years before that. She also went back to making the music she wanted to make once she had the money and attention.

 

When it comes down to it, selling out is a tool to be used at the artist's discretion. Selling out might potentially give an artist the safety net they need to write the music they really want. It might solidify their presence on a record label if they are given the ultimatum of sell out or be dropped. Selling out also makes a larger fanbase happy if it ends up reaching a very wide audience. On the flipside, if they flop by giving up on an image that nobody else had, on a sound that was beloved and unique in the music world, then that's still selling out, and they deserve all of the scrutiny their original fanbase might give them.

Edited March 21, 2016 by Day of Light

[Segue Myles]

A sell out would be someone who has great talent but dilutes it or disguises it to fit the norm and make money.

 

 

[J2112YYZ]

I'll never accuse a band of selling out. Like most of us, they want to be as successful and make as much money as possible with their job. Often times the result is that a band changes their image and sound, not always for the better, to reach a wider audience and be more successful. We may not always like when a band does this but you can't blame them for wanting to be as successful as possible.

[Union 5-3992]

It depends on who the music was made for. The artist or the audience?

[Ancient Ways]

A sellout is an artist who begins making music that the media, record company, or critics want as opposed to music that they or their fans want them to make. They are not trying to reach a public that they personally think they will connect with--they're just trying to reach the public that will make them money based on strict data analysis.

 

I don't associate selling out with fame or even with bands changing their sound to reach a wider audience; it has to do specifically with suppressing creativity in the name of fame, money, convenience. It also has to do with being inconsiderate of their original fanbase.

 

Rush would've "sold out" at two moments in their career: if they'd made a pop record after Caress of Steel like their record company wanted them to, and also if they'd just made Moving Pictures 2.0 after Moving Pictures instead of working on and developing their sound. To a lesser extent, they would've sold out if they'd played in giant arenas instead of the smaller venues their original fanbase was used to after the release of Permanent Waves. Allegedly they could've made millions off of that but chose not to--this is the antithesis of selling out.

 

Generally speaking I find that "selling out" is quite uncommon in art and music. An example of a band that sold out would be Dream Theater with the release of Falling Into Infinity, which was a more "mainstream" sound at the demands of their record company. I quite like this record, and I do think they recovered splendidly from it, going back to a sound that they are more happy with, and never (as far as I know) selling out again.

 

An artist that sold out is Lady Gaga. She gave up her cute brunette New York Italian bar singer girl thing to go platinum blonde, sing pop songs designed to go popular, and made it big in less than a year despite being in the industry for several years before that. She also went back to making the music she wanted to make once she had the money and attention.

 

When it comes down to it, selling out is a tool to be used at the artist's discretion. Selling out might potentially give an artist the safety net they need to write the music they really want. It might solidify their presence on a record label if they are given the ultimatum of sell out or be dropped. Selling out also makes a larger fanbase happy if it ends up reaching a very wide audience. On the flipside, if they flop by giving up on an image that nobody else had, on a sound that was beloved and unique in the music world, then that's still selling out, and they deserve all of the scrutiny their original fanbase might give them.

How do you know gaga doesn't love the music she's putting out? That's the problem with accusing an artist of selling out. We aren't always sure about it.

[Segue Myles]

It depends on who the music was made for. The artist or the audience?

 

Bryan Adams comes to mind. He actually was really talented til he realised money was where the sap is

[Day of Light]

How do you know gaga doesn't love the music she's putting out? That's the problem with accusing an artist of selling out. We aren't always sure about it.

 

Because she departed suddenly and severely from her original image. Because she wrote songs about selling out. Her first album's name is "The Fame". Her EP right after was called "The Fame Monster". She made interviews where she discussed selling out. Discussed her strategies. And then, afterwards, made different music.

 

I don't think she didn't enjoy what she was doing, but when the artist themselves had a plan, I think it's pretty clear. I think the misunderstanding here is that you assume selling out is a bad thing when it isn't. It's just a strategy.

Edited March 21, 2016 by Day of Light

[Segue Myles]

Lady Gaga loves her music. She even admitted when she felt Art pop wasn't her best.

[Segue Myles]

Also, Lady Gaga had already written many songs that ended up being given to other artists prior to her finding fame. And they all point in the direction of her subsequent sound. And her debut album sounded very fresh at the time of its release, and The Fame Monster really showed off her influences and heart.

 

She tried really hard to push her music into new realms with Born This Way (and was hit and miss), but Art pop was a failure. And she blamed herself for that.

 

Definitely not a sellout.

[Day of Light]

I actually liked Artpop! But alright, I see your point, I guess she wasn't a sell out. Edited March 21, 2016 by Day of Light

[Segue Myles]

I actually liked Artpop! But alright, I see your point, I guess she wasn't a sell out.

 

Haha you sound like me (I nearly always like the underdog albums)

[Digital Dad]

When a band either takes off or starts putting on a ton of makeup.

[Segue Myles]

When a band either takes off or starts putting on a ton of makeup.

 

I don't agree. If you judge a band by how they look then you are shallow.

 

I just don't like Slipknot or Ghost because they suck.

 

Then again...I do think both are very talented and I think blind fans will still love the music.

Edited March 21, 2016 by Segue Myles

[Ancient Ways]

How do you know gaga doesn't love the music she's putting out? That's the problem with accusing an artist of selling out. We aren't always sure about it.

 

Because she departed suddenly and severely from her original image. Because she wrote songs about selling out. Her first album's name is "The Fame". Her EP right after was called "The Fame Monster". She made interviews where she discussed selling out. Discussed her strategies. And then, afterwards, made different music.

 

I don't think she didn't enjoy what she was doing, but when the artist themselves had a plan, I think it's pretty clear. I think the misunderstanding here is that you assume selling out is a bad thing when it isn't. It's just a strategy.

I have my own opinion of what selling out is, thanks.

[Segue Myles]

How do you know gaga doesn't love the music she's putting out? That's the problem with accusing an artist of selling out. We aren't always sure about it.

 

Because she departed suddenly and severely from her original image. Because she wrote songs about selling out. Her first album's name is "The Fame". Her EP right after was called "The Fame Monster". She made interviews where she discussed selling out. Discussed her strategies. And then, afterwards, made different music.

 

I don't think she didn't enjoy what she was doing, but when the artist themselves had a plan, I think it's pretty clear. I think the misunderstanding here is that you assume selling out is a bad thing when it isn't. It's just a strategy.

I have my own opinion of what selling out is, thanks.

 

If you think an artist enjoys what they are doing, then how is that selling out?

 

Lacuna Coil did an album all about the fickle nature of fame and mocked celebrity culture in photo shoots for Shallow Life at the same time Gaga hit and they defend the poppy nature of the album 100% regardless of the backlash. The album was what they wanted...they loved it even if the audience didn't.

 

Gaga experimented with her sound...and she still explores other areas if music onstage.

 

She is in no way a sellout. She might put herself down as a sellout bur she is in control of everything she does. She also releases great pop songs SHE wrote and enjoys performing.

 

Not a sellout.

[Day of Light]

How do you know gaga doesn't love the music she's putting out? That's the problem with accusing an artist of selling out. We aren't always sure about it.

 

Because she departed suddenly and severely from her original image. Because she wrote songs about selling out. Her first album's name is "The Fame". Her EP right after was called "The Fame Monster". She made interviews where she discussed selling out. Discussed her strategies. And then, afterwards, made different music.

 

I don't think she didn't enjoy what she was doing, but when the artist themselves had a plan, I think it's pretty clear. I think the misunderstanding here is that you assume selling out is a bad thing when it isn't. It's just a strategy.

I have my own opinion of what selling out is, thanks.

 

And I have my own. You accused me of being wrong according to your personal definition. What's your point?

[Segue Myles]

Oh wait I responded to the wrongbpost

[Segue Myles]

I am just interested in how certain pop stars are sell outs. Because Lady Gaga...pre-fame...never had much substance to begin with.

 

Sorry if it came across an attavk

[Day of Light]

Segue, you're arguing how Lady Gaga is not a sellout based on a definition of selling out that is different from the definition I used to try and explain why she sold out back in 2008, 2009. To which I agree--yes, she didn't sell out according to your definition, and according to the genre of pop music she popularized.

 

To me personally an artist can still enjoy "selling out" if they don't have a particularly strong attachment to their image in the first place. They can enjoy the lifestyle, attention and money, and, hell, even enjoy some of the music they're writing. How is writing music according to what people want mutually exclusive from writing music according to what you want?

[Segue Myles]

Segue, you're arguing how Lady Gaga is not a sellout based on a definition of selling out that is different from the definition I used to try and explain why she sold out back in 2008, 2009. To which I agree--yes, she didn't sell out according to your definition, and according to the genre of pop music she popularized.

 

To me personally an artist can still enjoy "selling out" if they don't have a particularly strong attachment to their image in the first place. They can enjoy the lifestyle, attention and money, and, hell, even enjoy some of the music they're writing. How is writing music according to what people want mutually exclusive from writing music according to what you want?

 

But her entire career up to then was based on pop music and an all style no substance stage act...

[Digital Dad]

When a band either takes off or starts putting on a ton of makeup.

 

I don't agree. If you judge a band by how they look then you are shallow.

 

I just don't like Slipknot or Ghost because they suck.

 

Then again...I do think both are very talented and I think blind fans will still love the music.

 

There you go readinng subtext into my posts which just aren't there. I get enough of that ar home. Mostly it was referring to KISS and Metallica for one album. Yes. Ghost are very talented. Im just not buying into the hype.

 

Also the vocals are unlistenable. And this is a guy who

Loves Mastodon.

Edited March 21, 2016 by Digital Dad

[Segue Myles]

When a band either takes off or starts putting on a ton of makeup.

 

I don't agree. If you judge a band by how they look then you are shallow.

 

I just don't like Slipknot or Ghost because they suck.

 

Then again...I do think both are very talented and I think blind fans will still love the music.

 

There you go readinng subtext into my posts which just aren't there. I get enough of that ar home. Mostly it was referring to KISS and Metallica for one album. Yes. Ghost are very talented. Im just not buying into the hype.

 

Also the vocals are unlistenable. And this is a guy who

Loves Mastodon.

 

But I don't see what is wrong with having an image for a certain era if that's what you want to do...KISS are iconic and I love their visual stage act!

[Principled Man]

1. What does "selling out" mean in the world of music?

2. Who, in your opinion, has "sold out"? What do you point to as their "sellout" moments?

3. Does anybody come back from "selling out", or is it a permanent stain on the act's career?

4. What sorts of actions would constitute "selling out", whether or not somebody you've named in your answer #2 did that or not?

5. Tell me anything else that might be pertinent to the idea of "selling out"

 

1. Intentionally changing your music to please your record company and increase profits. Whether you like the new music or not is irrelevant. If you're making music to please others, you've thrown away your creative integrity.

 

2. Some of the older bands sold out.

Jefferson Airplane/Starship (We Built This City. Grace Slick left after that. )

REO Speedwagon (Their love ballads. Guitarist Gary Richrath left because of it. )

Heart (Fired their original drummer and bassist and started doing love ballads)

ZZ Top (Eliminator made them into music video giants. They kept milking the pop video cash cow)

 

3. ZZ Top has tried to return to their blues roots, but it may be too late for them. Many fans have said that they stink these days.

 

4. Changing your lyrics. Toning them down, making them tamer, less "offensive", more radio friendly. Dumbing down your music, making it easier to play. HEART is a good example. Nancy Wilson said recently that it was really hard playing their old tunes. Well, sure! Your "newer" tunes are pop-friendly and could be played by a high school band!

 

5. Starting in the 80's, MTV and the music video business made "selling out" much more frequent, and therefore a much bigger problem. There is so much money to be made in the video industry now. Bands find it very hard to stay true to their musical ideals. Getting their faces on everyone's TV and computer screens is much more important than getting on everyone's radios.

Edited March 21, 2016 by Principled Man

[Digital Dad]

When a band either takes off or starts putting on a ton of makeup.

 

I don't agree. If you judge a band by how they look then you are shallow.

 

I just don't like Slipknot or Ghost because they suck.

 

Then again...I do think both are very talented and I think blind fans will still love the music.

 

There you go readinng subtext into my posts which just aren't there. I get enough of that ar home. Mostly it was referring to KISS and Metallica for one album. Yes. Ghost are very talented. Im just not buying into the hype.

 

Also the vocals are unlistenable. And this is a guy who

Loves Mastodon.

 

But I don't see what is wrong with having an image for a certain era if that's what you want to do...KISS are iconic and I love their visual stage act!

 

Kiss would have been nowhere if not for that image.