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#201 lerxt1990

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Posted 23 March 2015 - 10:17 PM

View PostVan Squalen, on 23 March 2015 - 07:16 PM, said:

View Postlerxt1990, on 22 March 2015 - 11:33 PM, said:

View PostVan Squalen, on 22 March 2015 - 10:41 PM, said:

So I didn't know that there were fans who think Rush is coordinating some kind of conspiring under the table mechanisms to manipulate pricing. You can be sure Rush themselves aren't responsible. There is little doubt promoters and distributors manipulate the methods and timed releases and advertising to encourage the masses to buy this, that, and the other. This is nothing new in monopolies like TM or arenas like Madison Avenue. Nor are industry freebies a new thing. And most tickets not purchased at high cost don't stay static nor are tossed or disregarded, they're discounted at the very end of the sales period, as we all know. But NOT ALWAYS. Not because they're thrown away or comp' d away, but because people end up paying the high premiums either at the outset of ticket offerings, or near the tour date itself. People get nervous, people pull the trigger on the mortgage payment caliber seat. It happens ALL THE TIME. People don't just want to see Rush, they want to see Rush in style. Not every comment they've made is designed to rally tickets sales, they're just talking off the cuff. Well, except maybe Ray. But the facts are, we all know Neil and Alex are nearing the end of their desires to tour, and they're all bucking sixty. It's just how we've all aged, and how free markets continue to exist. It's really not rocket science.
  No conspiracy, agreed.  $150+ to sit in a cramped hockey arena seat is far from "in style" though.  I'm not saying it's unfair, but I feel fully free to gripe while I pay these high rates. :)

LOL, well, sure. I suppose I meant 'in style' in VIP fashion. Corporate boxes, waitresses, barbed wire fences separating the elite from the unwashed masses, handjobs from Neil, that sorta stuff. :D
I gotcha brother.

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#202 lerxt1990

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Posted 23 March 2015 - 10:18 PM

View PostGabrielgil513, on 23 March 2015 - 07:01 PM, said:

quote- I disagree that telling the fan base this is the last tour of this magnitude is toying with emotions.  Actually, it's just being honest.
-----

Except they didn't tell us what that exactly means.

It means its the last tour but they dont want Ray to know :)

#203 lerxt1990

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Posted 23 March 2015 - 10:20 PM

View PostVan Squalen, on 23 March 2015 - 07:21 PM, said:

View PostGabrielgil513, on 23 March 2015 - 07:01 PM, said:

Except they didn't tell us what that exactly means. Part of honesty is clarity. I would not say there is dishonesty here, but I'd stop short of calling it honest. Their vagueness has led to an explosion in ticket sales and unit cost and has manipulated the "free" market, in concert with many other factors. Good for them, I'm a fan.

I really don't think the vagueness has led to a ticket sales explosion. Hardcore rush fans always think there's so many of us. There really, really isn't. There's far more classic rock fans than there are Rush fans. Few of them have been affected by, or even noticed, the practices of Rush in the ticketing market. They're either willing to pay, or they're not. Same way they purchase AC/DC tickets or Van Halen tickets or anyone else they came of age to.

A setlist w 9 CA songs and an 80s fest didnt pack in the old fans either.  This show... for possible last and a promised setlist including some old favorites, moreso.

#204 dtpoet

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Posted 23 March 2015 - 10:29 PM

View PostGabrielgil513, on 23 March 2015 - 10:13 PM, said:

View PostVan Squalen, on 23 March 2015 - 07:19 PM, said:

View PostGabrielgil513, on 23 March 2015 - 05:24 AM, said:

View PostVan Squalen, on 22 March 2015 - 10:41 PM, said:

So I didn't know that there were fans who think Rush is coordinating some kind of conspiring under the table mechanisms to manipulate pricing. You can be sure Rush themselves aren't responsible. There is little doubt promoters and distributors manipulate the methods and timed releases and advertising to encourage the masses to buy this, that, and the other. This is nothing new in monopolies like TM or arenas like Madison Avenue. Nor are industry freebies a new thing. And most tickets not purchased at high cost don't stay static nor are tossed or disregarded, they're discounted at the very end of the sales period, as we all know. But NOT ALWAYS. Not because they're thrown away or comp' d away, but because people end up paying the high premiums either at the outset of ticket offerings, or near the tour date itself. People get nervous, people pull the trigger on the mortgage payment caliber seat. It happens ALL THE TIME. People don't just want to see Rush, they want to see Rush in style. Not every comment they've made is designed to rally tickets sales, they're just talking off the cuff. Well, except maybe Ray. But the facts are, we all know Neil and Alex are nearing the end of their desires to tour, and they're all bucking sixty. It's just how we've all aged, and how free markets continue to exist. It's really not rocket science.

My only intent was to present the other side about free market economics in the concert industry. Rush deserves a premium price, my belief is that a true free market would look much different.

What bands like Rush do is give full power to the promoters, for a large up front fee. Promoters play the scalping game and supply/demand games. There are artists that don't do it this way, don't let the promoters have all the power, Pearl Jam being the best example, bucking the system since they were newbies. Bruce also takes steps to create more of a fair market.

A specific example on this tour is the lack of side/ rear diagonal seats, thousands of them, have not been released in the NYC area, which is the exact opposite of what Rush did in their concert selling heyday. We can see the line today of what is not available to the market today and easily recall how far back fans used to sit in their heyday. These seats may likely be released, but holding them back now is manufacturing price and limiting supply, which has an irreversible effect on those that have already bought secondary tickets.

Their quickest sell outs in 20 years (which is very exciting). But the specific supply limitation here is obvious. There are more factors at work here as we'll. Yes this work has the invisible hand of the promoters, but the band's name appears on the ticket/no tickets currently available from the venue page.

Everyone always quotes Bruce or Pearl Jam in citing this practice. It's a solid practice. But most artists, it's outta their hands, and they just run with it, they make money, they know the game, they lament it, but in the end, they're doing the best they can. I'm not sure expecting Rush to control every aspect of tens of thousands of tickets is a reasonable expectation. Not in today's music biz, and not in today's markets.

Best they Can, excellent! I didn't intend to blame Rush regarding holding back the rear seats they used to sell back in the easy sellout days. That's the work of the promoter, protecting their investment and keeping prices high. I'm just citing influences on market forces at work here, demonstrating it's not free market economics. Citing Pearl Jam is an example of bands that chose a different path to operate the market differently. They still have high prices and limited supply, but they work hard trying to make it fair to their loyal fans. I'm not sure payin $40 every year to be a member is a great deal for the chance at far away seats, but they are making an effort.


Regarding ticket explosion, the two sell outs in the NYC area have been the quickest in 20 years. TM was  a solid sellout at MSG, but that took a lot of time and promo. But many non sell outs. CA did not sell well. this year there was an obvious difference. many of the venues are sold out. Fast. As a comparison, check out the CA last tour stats. CA was a far cry from what we are seeing on R40, which is terrific. Magnitude has made a difference, I am happy about it, I want the joint rockin, just citing that as a market influence.

But Gabrielle, you can compare the CA tour to the R40 tour.  One was an album concept while this one is a span of 40 years.  I'm sure there were people who sat out CA or waited to purchase knowing that a good chunk of the setlist was going to be from the same CD.  This tour, the sky's the limit on what actually may make the setlist.  Hardcore fans who have been waiting eons to hear the "classics" know the odds are far greater they get to hear THOSE songs on this tour compared to the last.  So the response was more urgent this go around as opposed to last time.

Edited by dtpoet, 23 March 2015 - 10:30 PM.


#205 WorkingAllTheTime

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Posted 23 March 2015 - 10:36 PM

View PostGabrielgil513, on 23 March 2015 - 07:01 PM, said:

quote- I disagree that telling the fan base this is the last tour of this magnitude is toying with emotions.  Actually, it's just being honest.
-----

Except they didn't tell us what that exactly means. Part of honesty is clarity. I would not say there is dishonesty here, but I'd stop short of calling it honest. Their vagueness has led to an explosion in ticket sales and unit cost and has manipulated the "free" market, in concert with many other factors. Good for them, I'm a fan.

I know this is a thinking man's (and woman's) band.  I know that many Rush fans are pretty deep thinkers.  But I also think many are overthinking what "last tour of this magnitude means".  I think it pretty clearly means, "Hey, y'all, this is the last time we are going to do a multi-city tour with all the bells and whistles you expect of us.  So, yeah, look at the list of cities and make some decisions."

The irony is that if the band didn't make that statement, yet knew it was their intent.... then the fan stuff would really hit the fan.   *THAT* would actually be disingenuous.

Edited by WorkingAllTheTime, 23 March 2015 - 10:39 PM.


#206 WorkingAllTheTime

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Posted 23 March 2015 - 10:38 PM

View Postlerxt1990, on 22 March 2015 - 11:33 PM, said:

View PostVan Squalen, on 22 March 2015 - 10:41 PM, said:

So I didn't know that there were fans who think Rush is coordinating some kind of conspiring under the table mechanisms to manipulate pricing. You can be sure Rush themselves aren't responsible. There is little doubt promoters and distributors manipulate the methods and timed releases and advertising to encourage the masses to buy this, that, and the other. This is nothing new in monopolies like TM or arenas like Madison Avenue. Nor are industry freebies a new thing. And most tickets not purchased at high cost don't stay static nor are tossed or disregarded, they're discounted at the very end of the sales period, as we all know. But NOT ALWAYS. Not because they're thrown away or comp' d away, but because people end up paying the high premiums either at the outset of ticket offerings, or near the tour date itself. People get nervous, people pull the trigger on the mortgage payment caliber seat. It happens ALL THE TIME. People don't just want to see Rush, they want to see Rush in style. Not every comment they've made is designed to rally tickets sales, they're just talking off the cuff. Well, except maybe Ray. But the facts are, we all know Neil and Alex are nearing the end of their desires to tour, and they're all bucking sixty. It's just how we've all aged, and how free markets continue to exist. It's really not rocket science.
  No conspiracy, agreed.  $150+ to sit in a cramped hockey arena seat is far from "in style" though.  I'm not saying it's unfair, but I feel fully free to gripe while I pay these high rates. :)

Yep.  And have you seen how much a gallon of milk costs these days?!

Complain away, my friend, if it makes you feel better.  :D

#207 TexMike

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Posted 23 March 2015 - 11:01 PM

View PostGabrielgil513, on 23 March 2015 - 07:01 PM, said:

quote- I disagree that telling the fan base this is the last tour of this magnitude is toying with emotions.  Actually, it's just being honest.
-----

Except they didn't tell us what that exactly means. Part of honesty is clarity. I would not say there is dishonesty here, but I'd stop short of calling it honest. Their vagueness has led to an explosion in ticket sales and unit cost and has manipulated the "free" market, in concert with many other factors. Good for them, I'm a fan.

Ever consider the possibility any "vagueness" might simply be because *they themselves* don't exactly know what their future holds?  All they know is that at this moment right now, they DO NOT BELIEVE they'll ever commit to as many as 35 dates for a single tour again.  And that's EXACTLY what they're telling us.  They're giving us all the honesty they can for the moment.

Sure, there are some bands who might dangle a "this magnitude" carrot to get more people to cough up now, but no way is Rush one of them.  They don't need a few extra bucks and they don't owe us jack.  They could've easily stopped and walked away 10 years ago after R30.  We all knew there would come a day when they wouldn't be able to crank out 3-hour shows anymore and they're telling us that that time is almost here.  And they also know that if they would've waited until AFTER the tour to say "no more of that magnitude", the people that didn't go would've whined 'Why didn't you tell us???'.  Basically, they are trying to break up with us gradually.  ;)

And my theory as to why tickets have been flying so fast is because they've announced this is an ANNIVERSARY tour.  People who only want oldies have noticed there will be NO new material that they'll have to sit through and so the show will likely be only hits and deep cuts.  And there are a LOT of those oldies-only folks out there!

#208 Bard

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Posted 23 March 2015 - 11:29 PM

Good points made above.

I am pretty sure the core of casual and diehard Rush fans tend to lean toward the 80s stuff, not the 70s stuff. Despite what many a Hemispheres/
FWTK fan on here maintains. :)

#209 lerxt1990

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Posted 23 March 2015 - 11:47 PM

View PostVan Squalen, on 23 March 2015 - 11:29 PM, said:

Good points made above.

I am pretty sure the core of casual and diehard Rush fans tend to lean toward the 80s stuff, not the 70s stuff. Despite what many a Hemispheres/
FWTK fan on here maintains. :)

I dont agree.  The hardcore fans still want to hear MP (ok thats 80s stuff), PeW, and 2112.  I see that just in the crowds reactions to songs from that era.  The only 80s song that gets that huge a reaction is Subdivisions.  Closer to the Heart, La Villa, Freewill, The Trees, or any of those old songs remain more of a crowd pleaser (by maybe a little or more) than anything else on PoW, HYF, etc. for the majority of the crowd.  I speak only of my neck of the woods of course.

#210 GabesCavesOfIce

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 05:30 AM

<p>

View PostTexMike, on 23 March 2015 - 11:01 PM, said:

View PostGabrielgil513, on 23 March 2015 - 07:01 PM, said:

quote- I disagree that telling the fan base this is the last tour of this magnitude is toying with emotions.  Actually, it's just being honest.
-----

Except they didn't tell us what that exactly means. Part of honesty is clarity. I would not say there is dishonesty here, but I'd stop short of calling it honest. Their vagueness has led to an explosion in ticket sales and unit cost and has manipulated the "free" market, in concert with many other factors. Good for them, I'm a fan.

Ever consider the possibility any "vagueness" might simply be because *they themselves* don't exactly know what their future holds?  All they know is that at this moment right now, they DO NOT BELIEVE they'll ever commit to as many as 35 dates for a single tour again.  And that's EXACTLY what they're telling us.  They're giving us all the honesty they can for the moment.

Sure, there are some bands who might dangle a "this magnitude" carrot to get more people to cough up now, but no way is Rush one of them.  They don't need a few extra bucks and they don't owe us jack.  They could've easily stopped and walked away 10 years ago after R30.  We all knew there would come a day when they wouldn't be able to crank out 3-hour shows anymore and they're telling us that that time is almost here.  And they also know that if they would've waited until AFTER the tour to say "no more of that magnitude", the people that didn't go would've whined 'Why didn't you tell us???'.  Basically, they are trying to break up with us gradually.  ;)

And my theory as to why tickets have been flying so fast is because they've announced this is an ANNIVERSARY tour.  People who only want oldies have noticed there will be NO new material that they'll have to sit through and so the show will likely be only hits and deep cuts.  And there are a LOT of those oldies-only folks out there!

With the exception of two tours ago, which was also a 'greatest hits' tour. And a few before that, R30 also greatest hits...well, plus feedback. TM did better business than CA, but no where near R40. The magnitude comments have altered the demand dynamic here, which is my basic point. Ive considered ALOT about the magnitude comments, and am replying strictly on a comment that they were honest. I also said it was not dishonest, but part of honesty is clarity, and the magnitude comment is not clear. They could easily added Rays Juno comment initially, but that could have held back demand. Hey, I'm happy they did it,cuz MSG and the Pru will be packed with Rush fans, but it's having an impact on demand I haven't seen in 20 years here.And your use of "that's EXACTLY what they are telling us" I recall absolutely NO details such as those you cite before tix went on sale, on the original press release, before they have been asked a zillion times what the heck did that mean by the media.Its not just me saying, every major interview with the band, TMS, Q107, Ray at the Junos, the media has also been asking what the heck did that press release mean. With subsequent interviews, we have a little more info, but this is all after tix were sold out in many markets.

Edited by Gabrielgil513, 24 March 2015 - 08:25 AM.





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