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T. Brown, the fourth member of classic Rush


toymaker
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Again, what has Terry Brown accomplished with his post-Rush career?

 

Honestly, I haven't heard anything that leads me to believe he's some sort of producing giant. Nothing.

 

 

 

Lets turn that question around. What has ged or alex, or evenneil for that matter accomplished while doing solo stints? Lame individual albums? Videos? These guys would be lost without each other and their support team. Terry was extricated from his element. He was the 4th member whether u want to believe or not. Ever hear those older prototypical songs played before they were released? They were a real effing mess! Don't understand why ppl want to undermine Terry's vast contributions.

Terry Brown was the producer, not the 4th member. Wishful thinking, my friend. No one is undermining Terry Brown's contributions to Rush. He did a fine job. He just gets too much credit from Old Rush Fan Boys.

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Terry Brown was the producer, not the 4th member. Wishful thinking, my friend. No one is undermining Terry Brown's contributions to Rush. He did a fine job. He just gets too much credit from Old Rush Fan Boys.

 

The term "fanboy" gets tossed around a fair bit, and I guess it's meant to be vaguely insulting, or something. What is the opposite of "fanboy"? "Casual listener"? "One who appreciates music but has a more balanced perspective" (who says?)? Or is it some reference to us "old timers" who have always loved the music from the earlier part of the band's career, but were disappointed by the change of direction? Whatever the case, what makes the "fanboy's" opinion any less valid? I own all of Rush's albums, and I listen to them all (well, not Roll the Bones so much), as I imagine most of us can claim.

 

Also, why are you talking about "too much credit"? Those of us who admire Terry Brown's work with Rush are just admiring his production values and stating our opinion that the sound of those records is more satisfying to us than the sound of later albums. I agree he was not "part of the band" in the sense of contributing riffs or whatever. But there's a consistency to a lot of those albums (mostly a wonderful balance and separation of instruments, and an overall polish and crispness of sonics) that suggests he was part of something that was necessary in helping the band to achieve a unique sound.

 

Not trying to sound pissy. I respect your opinion. And the foregoing is just my opinion - an old Rush fanboy's opinion, I guess. :codger:

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Some producers can be thought of as members of the band, but it depends on their style and level of involvement with song arrangements, textures, instrumentation, lyrics, editing, etc. I do think of someone like Eddie Offord as a member of classic Yes—he had a significant influence on songs such as "Close to the Edge." Also consider what Brian Eno did for/to U2. And there are numerous similar examples.

 

Did Terry have deep involvement in song writing, development, arrangement, and instrumentation? Or was he closer to an engineer?

 

I will say the Terry Brown albums are my favorite, and for me there is a sharp decline in quality after Signals. So for me personally it almost doesn't matter if Terry was more of a producer or an engineer, either way those albums sound better to my ears, and that's a credit to Terry. Just my opinion, based on my taste.

 

Also, to respond to a couple other points in this thread, it's my understanding that Terry left Rush, and not the other way around. He didn't like the prevailing keyboards, and especially the electronic drums. And I think someone earlier in this thread suggested that Terry pushed keyboards on Rush. That's not true, Terry resisted the keyboards, no? Perhaps the impasse was mutually constructed?

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Tony Clarke (record producer) was considered the "sixth Moody". When he walked out on the production of Octave, followed by Mike Pinder, the Moodies devolved into just another eighties mtv pop group and are still, thanks to devoted aging fans, reaping the benefits, minor as they are today, from their popularity in the late sixties/seventies. Tony Clarke has since died, and Mike Pinder is still around, but both did nothing significant after leaving the Moodies. Yet both of them had a significant influence on the band while they were with them.
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Tony Clarke (record producer) was considered the "sixth Moody". When he walked out on the production of Octave, followed by Mike Pinder, the Moodies devolved into just another eighties mtv pop group and are still, thanks to devoted aging fans, reaping the benefits, minor as they are today, from their popularity in the late sixties/seventies. Tony Clarke has since died, and Mike Pinder is still around, but both did nothing significant after leaving the Moodies. Yet both of them had a significant influence on the band while they were with them.

 

and lest we forget i'm the 4th member of our New Rush

 

:ebert:

 

LOL

 

Mick

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Tony Clarke (record producer) was considered the "sixth Moody". When he walked out on the production of Octave, followed by Mike Pinder, the Moodies devolved into just another eighties mtv pop group and are still, thanks to devoted aging fans, reaping the benefits, minor as they are today, from their popularity in the late sixties/seventies. Tony Clarke has since died, and Mike Pinder is still around, but both did nothing significant after leaving the Moodies. Yet both of them had a significant influence on the band while they were with them.

 

and lest we forget i'm the 4th member of our New Rush

 

:ebert:

 

LOL

 

Mick

Mea cupla, Mick! Indeed you are. Keep that pencil sharpened, and have a few extra handy. You are going to need them. :)

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Tony Clarke (record producer) was considered the "sixth Moody". When he walked out on the production of Octave, followed by Mike Pinder, the Moodies devolved into just another eighties mtv pop group and are still, thanks to devoted aging fans, reaping the benefits, minor as they are today, from their popularity in the late sixties/seventies. Tony Clarke has since died, and Mike Pinder is still around, but both did nothing significant after leaving the Moodies. Yet both of them had a significant influence on the band while they were with them.

 

and lest we forget i'm the 4th member of our New Rush

 

:ebert:

 

LOL

 

Mick

Mea cupla, Mick! Indeed you are. Keep that pencil sharpened, and have a few extra handy. You are going to need them. :)

 

i'm already working on setlist suggestions

 

Mick

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I found this thread thru the search, as I was going to post something similar ( exact ? :)

 

First, I don't think this is nostalgia - it is recognizing Brown as an integral part of the great band we all love, and who rarely is mentioned when the topic of RUSH comes up ..

 

I believe that Brown helped elevate RUSH's music from "songs" to "places" - he gave them a cinematic dimension that was so important to the overall experience ..

 

The eerie atmosphere created in the beginning of Cygnus X-1 - or - during the "I have memory and awareness" section of Hemispheres - the little bits of flange and echo in Jacob's Ladder "All at once the clouds are parted, light streams down in bright, unbroken beams s s s s ssss" ... this is magic, and I suspect Brown was responsible for creating it, and getting the listener involved in where the band took us ...

 

.

 

.

Edited by Lucas
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I think Brown brought something to the Rush releases that has never really been matched. When he remixed the first album, by all accounts he helped to achieve the sound they were going for. I think as a producer he progressed along with the band, and when I think of the classic sound of Rush, I always think first of the albums he had a hand in producing. I have not read anything that described in any great detail exactly what their working relationship was like, or what precisely he brought to the whole process. All I know is that I love the sound of those records.

 

When they parted ways in the 80s – to prevent musical stagnation or whatever – I think the sound changed forever. The band still brought their prodigious musical and composition talents to the table, but it seems to me they were a bit too open to suggestion. Strangers invaded my music, adding synthesizer flourishes and programming and even background vocals. (I’m no fan of 80s music in general, so I’m very biased.) The post 84 part of the 80s decade is almost entirely an era of creamy, drippy, synthy Rush music, in which we are occasionally treated to adventurous and muscular forays into killer-chops territory (I think of Mission’s instrumental break, although it lacks the Brown sound).

 

Then we get the latter-day Rush, which many on the forum have characterized as too heavily-layered, too much a “wall of sound,” too noisy and cluttered and distracting. I wonder what Brown would bring back to the mix. It seems all the elements required to find that bygone sound are probably lost forever – that mixing board at that studio, that producer, that youthful band wanting to make that indefinable, inimitable, complex, razor-sharp, crisp, melodic sound. But maybe Brown’s influence would align the vestiges of those elements in just the right way, and if he hasn’t lost his touch, we might get an album that has that Permanent Waves clarity.

 

Just dreaming. Mostly this is just a tribute I've wanted to articulate for a while.

 

Very well said. And I agree.

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Interesting concept...but the band needed to part ways (if even temporarily) to "find" themselves again. Signals was a great album, but a bland sounding effort, and they needed to wander away for a while....

 

I don't think that him coming aboard at this moment in time would do anything...it sounds like the band is at a point where they're thinking they're done...gimme a break 40 years together, plus other years leading up to when Neil came on board...that's a good run! A DAMN good run!

 

However, I DO wonder what one of the albums I'm not overly a fan of, such as Hold Your Fire, Presto, or Roll the Bones would have sounded like had Terry been able to slide in to do an album..I think part of his job was the fourth member sounding board that would possibly have said "um...not working" to a few of the songs, and how they sounded.

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"Interesting concept...but the band needed to part ways (if even temporarily) to "find" themselves again. Signals was a great album, but a bland sounding effort, and they needed to wander away for a while...."

 

Problem is, like the proverbial Children of Israel, they wandered, and they wandered, and wandered some more. And some more. They wandered a really long time. Maybe couldn't be helped.

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I remember John Lennon reacting angrily when a journalist in the '70s suggested that a large part of The Beatles' creativity was due to George Martin's influence, in light of what most thought were lesser individual efforts to that point. You could sense some defensiveness in Lennon's immediate response, which was kind of insulting and dismissive towards Martin (Lennon later apologized to Martin). I wonder if there is some degree of that among Rush; they might be wary at some level that if Brown came back for one more record and it was to some degree a return to the old form and was really well-received, some people might say, "See, their past greatness really was largely due to Terry's influence after all." Maybe Rush doesn't want to take a chance that they might vindicate that view in some minds (though it's obviously not that simple; Brown like Martin for The Beatles was one of many factors that shaped their sound; the '70s were as fertile ground for Rush's particular talents as the '60s were for those of The Beatles). Of course there might be a million other reasons they'd rather leave the past in the past. They might feel like Eddie Murphy looking back on Trading Places, feeling that he's outgrown John Landis' direction with some dismissiveness, even though that is arguably his best movie. Maybe Rush feels they've outgrown Terry despite most of us thinking that those were their best albums. When Neil dismisses most of his pre-MP lyrics, and Geddy dismisses old standards like Lakeside Park, I wonder if Rush curiously imagines they're now beyond what Terry can bring to the table. Not for my tastes for sure, but...

 

Even George came back for Real Love, which I believe was the Beatles' last collaboration (can't remember if it was that or Free as a Bird). It brought the whole thing full circle. How about it, boys?

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Who's whatshisname?

 

The Snakes and CA producer.

I think Nick Raskulinecz did a good job on Snakes & Arrows and Clockwork Angels.

 

I don't think those albums are the sonic mess some make them out to be. They sound fine to my ears.

 

S&A sounds fine (though the songs are not there for half the album), but CA doesn't leave any space to breathe. It drowns in layer after layer after layer.

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How do those Terry Brown produced Tiles albums sound?

 

Excellent. Tiles doesn't have the hooks that Rush has, but they are a good band, and their albums sound very good.

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LedRush I agree. I've enjoyed the Tiles catalog with and without Terry Brown producing. Looking forward to their next release. I wouldn't mind Terry Brown coming back to produce the next Rush album, though I have no problem with Nick at the helm, and would love to hear Rush end their career by producing their last album by themselves, with no outside direction.
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BROON Rush is clearly the best Rush and many would like to have him back in the mix. How did the relastioship end, could he return?
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"Interesting concept...but the band needed to part ways (if even temporarily) to "find" themselves again. Signals was a great album, but a bland sounding effort, and they needed to wander away for a while...."

 

Problem is, like the proverbial Children of Israel, they wandered, and they wandered, and wandered some more. And some more. They wandered a really long time. Maybe couldn't be helped.

 

I guess we don't know the whole situation between Terry and the boys...I'm sure they keep in touch, but IIRC there wasn't any interaction in Beyond the Lighted Stage between them, was there? (now I have to watch it again this weekend....)

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"Interesting concept...but the band needed to part ways (if even temporarily) to "find" themselves again. Signals was a great album, but a bland sounding effort, and they needed to wander away for a while...."

 

Problem is, like the proverbial Children of Israel, they wandered, and they wandered, and wandered some more. And some more. They wandered a really long time. Maybe couldn't be helped.

 

I guess we don't know the whole situation between Terry and the boys...I'm sure they keep in touch, but IIRC there wasn't any interaction in Beyond the Lighted Stage between them, was there? (now I have to watch it again this weekend....)

Terry Brown was interviewed. Also, didn't Alex play on a Tiles album produced by Terry Brown? I'm sure they keep in touch and talk about how Terry was never the "fourth" member of Rush.

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"Interesting concept...but the band needed to part ways (if even temporarily) to "find" themselves again. Signals was a great album, but a bland sounding effort, and they needed to wander away for a while...."

 

Problem is, like the proverbial Children of Israel, they wandered, and they wandered, and wandered some more. And some more. They wandered a really long time. Maybe couldn't be helped.

 

I guess we don't know the whole situation between Terry and the boys...I'm sure they keep in touch, but IIRC there wasn't any interaction in Beyond the Lighted Stage between them, was there? (now I have to watch it again this weekend....)

Terry Brown was interviewed. Also, didn't Alex play on a Tiles album produced by Terry Brown? I'm sure they keep in touch and talk about how Terry was never the "fourth" member of Rush.

 

The band have talked about how Brown was like a member of the band and like a member of the family, IIRC. Also, Alex, Geddy and Terry got together for the VH1 DVD on 2112 and MP. It was fantastic.

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BROON Rush is clearly the best Rush and many would like to have him back in the mix. How did the relastioship end, could he return?

 

 

http://youtu.be/Vyisn1C3Kv8?t=1h10m54s

 

Ok...that sparked the memory of it....thanks for posting.... He thought that it would re-kindle, but it didn't...technically...after they got tired of the electronic stuff taking precedence, they should have had him come back for Presto since they seemed to be moving back to the "guitar/bass/drums" thing, and less electronic drums and keys as a "main instrument" kind of thing. (HyF was a start to move away, as well) Shame that it never had a "last hurrah"....

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Revisiting that piece of video its like Counterparts was the new Brown record. Nothing in BTLS says they couldn't record another album with Terry, perhaps their last album? Edited by JohnRogers
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