Thank You, Derek Jeter (please no haters!!!)

[laughedatbytime]

Derek Jeter's a legitimately great player. Drawing lines at 190 hits and putting in something like a slugging percentage of .400 is a mostly meaningless stat, like proving Palmeiro was one of the top HR hitters of all time by listing players with the most seasons hitting at least 38 HRs.

 

Not to mention that others whose fielding prowess fell off as badly as Jeter;s did in his later years got moved out of the position and had no chance to add to their hit totals.

I don't entirely disagree with you, but Jeter has NOT fallen off. He was hurt last year, is all. In his last full season, he hit above his lifetime average led the league in hits! I have complete and utter faith he'll hit at least .290. Hardly falling off, if you ask me.

 

He is making the argument that despite incredibly good fielding percentage and gold gloves, Jeter's range makes him the shittiest shortstop ever to play the game (defensively).

Yep. That's exactly what I'm arguing.

 

What a fabulous, incisive post! :clap: :clap: :clap:

 

Is Aunt Flow visiting?

No....I'm just a little jealous since I appear to have missed out on the great deal on straw you got.

 

You took my summary of what you were saying seriously? Jesus, lighten up.

If you weren't serious then I stand corrected.

 

Better yet if it was a veiled criticism of traditional fielding statistics and a mockery of those who vote for the GGs.

 

I 100% wasn't serious that that was your position, though I did want to convey:

 

1. You were talking about defense

2. That I don't put too much stock in the new fielding statistics

Fair enough...you fooled me.

 

But I would be interested (though this might not be the place to do it) why you're not a fan of the new fielding statistics.

 

They are based on more information than the traditional statistics and would appear to be based on information relevant to the defensive value of a player, therefore they should add to the sum total of the knowledge of a player. What, in your opinion, is not true about that statement?

 

I think the problem for me is twofold:

 

1. people often treat them as gospel, when, in fact, the new stats don't account for the many differences in each team's decision or in how each ball is hit or how fast a play needs to be made based on the situation

 

2. they contradict what I see with my own eyes

 

Yes, they provide more information than before, but the limitations of traditional fielding statistics are immediately evident, while the limitations of the new ones seem much more hidden (perhaps because of their complexity and subjective nature).

I can't disagree with point #1...especially the part about anything being treated with skepticism instead of being taken as gospel. In general, though they add from the sum total of knowledge, not detract from it. At this point, you can't measure all of those things perfectly (and they're all things which would be valuable to measure.

 

W/r/t point #2, I tend to trust things that can be measured from an objective viewpoint more than I do my own observations, which can be biased and/or incorrectly observed/measured. At least with the new defensive metrics, there is an attempt to be objective about things. I believe that those who are developing the metrics are doing so in an attempt to increase knowledge about the subject they're studying, and will change the metrics if they are shown to be faulty or incomplete.

[LedRush]

Derek Jeter's a legitimately great player. Drawing lines at 190 hits and putting in something like a slugging percentage of .400 is a mostly meaningless stat, like proving Palmeiro was one of the top HR hitters of all time by listing players with the most seasons hitting at least 38 HRs.

 

Not to mention that others whose fielding prowess fell off as badly as Jeter;s did in his later years got moved out of the position and had no chance to add to their hit totals.

I don't entirely disagree with you, but Jeter has NOT fallen off. He was hurt last year, is all. In his last full season, he hit above his lifetime average led the league in hits! I have complete and utter faith he'll hit at least .290. Hardly falling off, if you ask me.

 

He is making the argument that despite incredibly good fielding percentage and gold gloves, Jeter's range makes him the shittiest shortstop ever to play the game (defensively).

Yep. That's exactly what I'm arguing.

 

What a fabulous, incisive post! :clap: :clap: :clap:

 

Is Aunt Flow visiting?

No....I'm just a little jealous since I appear to have missed out on the great deal on straw you got.

 

You took my summary of what you were saying seriously? Jesus, lighten up.

If you weren't serious then I stand corrected.

 

Better yet if it was a veiled criticism of traditional fielding statistics and a mockery of those who vote for the GGs.

 

I 100% wasn't serious that that was your position, though I did want to convey:

 

1. You were talking about defense

2. That I don't put too much stock in the new fielding statistics

Fair enough...you fooled me.

 

But I would be interested (though this might not be the place to do it) why you're not a fan of the new fielding statistics.

 

They are based on more information than the traditional statistics and would appear to be based on information relevant to the defensive value of a player, therefore they should add to the sum total of the knowledge of a player. What, in your opinion, is not true about that statement?

 

I think the problem for me is twofold:

 

1. people often treat them as gospel, when, in fact, the new stats don't account for the many differences in each team's decision or in how each ball is hit or how fast a play needs to be made based on the situation

 

2. they contradict what I see with my own eyes

 

Yes, they provide more information than before, but the limitations of traditional fielding statistics are immediately evident, while the limitations of the new ones seem much more hidden (perhaps because of their complexity and subjective nature).

I can't disagree with point #1...especially the part about anything being treated with skepticism instead of being taken as gospel. In general, though they add from the sum total of knowledge, not detract from it. At this point, you can't measure all of those things perfectly (and they're all things which would be valuable to measure.

 

W/r/t point #2, I tend to trust things that can be measured from an objective viewpoint more than I do my own observations, which can be biased and/or incorrectly observed/measured. At least with the new defensive metrics, there is an attempt to be objective about things. I believe that those who are developing the metrics are doing so in an attempt to increase knowledge about the subject they're studying, and will change the metrics if they are shown to be faulty or incomplete.

 

I understand what you're saying w/r/t #2, and I also like objective stats. But I would argue the old stats may provide "less" information than the new ones, the old ones are more objective. I'm not saying they're better, but they are clearly defined and don't involve people watching each play and saying "I think this happened in this way". Admittedly, both are more objective than my own observations and feel, but I trust my subjectivity more than theirs.

 

If they came out with a new "objective" passer rating that said that Dan Marino was the worst passer of any QB with more than 30 starts in NFL history, I don't need to examine the methodology to know it's bullshit. I saw him play too many games.

[laughedatbytime]

Derek Jeter's a legitimately great player. Drawing lines at 190 hits and putting in something like a slugging percentage of .400 is a mostly meaningless stat, like proving Palmeiro was one of the top HR hitters of all time by listing players with the most seasons hitting at least 38 HRs.

 

Not to mention that others whose fielding prowess fell off as badly as Jeter;s did in his later years got moved out of the position and had no chance to add to their hit totals.

I don't entirely disagree with you, but Jeter has NOT fallen off. He was hurt last year, is all. In his last full season, he hit above his lifetime average led the league in hits! I have complete and utter faith he'll hit at least .290. Hardly falling off, if you ask me.

 

He is making the argument that despite incredibly good fielding percentage and gold gloves, Jeter's range makes him the shittiest shortstop ever to play the game (defensively).

Yep. That's exactly what I'm arguing.

 

What a fabulous, incisive post! :clap: :clap: :clap:

 

Is Aunt Flow visiting?

No....I'm just a little jealous since I appear to have missed out on the great deal on straw you got.

 

You took my summary of what you were saying seriously? Jesus, lighten up.

If you weren't serious then I stand corrected.

 

Better yet if it was a veiled criticism of traditional fielding statistics and a mockery of those who vote for the GGs.

 

I 100% wasn't serious that that was your position, though I did want to convey:

 

1. You were talking about defense

2. That I don't put too much stock in the new fielding statistics

Fair enough...you fooled me.

 

But I would be interested (though this might not be the place to do it) why you're not a fan of the new fielding statistics.

 

They are based on more information than the traditional statistics and would appear to be based on information relevant to the defensive value of a player, therefore they should add to the sum total of the knowledge of a player. What, in your opinion, is not true about that statement?

 

I think the problem for me is twofold:

 

1. people often treat them as gospel, when, in fact, the new stats don't account for the many differences in each team's decision or in how each ball is hit or how fast a play needs to be made based on the situation

 

2. they contradict what I see with my own eyes

 

Yes, they provide more information than before, but the limitations of traditional fielding statistics are immediately evident, while the limitations of the new ones seem much more hidden (perhaps because of their complexity and subjective nature).

I can't disagree with point #1...especially the part about anything being treated with skepticism instead of being taken as gospel. In general, though they add from the sum total of knowledge, not detract from it. At this point, you can't measure all of those things perfectly (and they're all things which would be valuable to measure.

 

W/r/t point #2, I tend to trust things that can be measured from an objective viewpoint more than I do my own observations, which can be biased and/or incorrectly observed/measured. At least with the new defensive metrics, there is an attempt to be objective about things. I believe that those who are developing the metrics are doing so in an attempt to increase knowledge about the subject they're studying, and will change the metrics if they are shown to be faulty or incomplete.

 

I understand what you're saying w/r/t #2, and I also like objective stats. But I would argue the old stats may provide "less" information than the new ones, the old ones are more objective. I'm not saying they're better, but they are clearly defined and don't involve people watching each play and saying "I think this happened in this way". Admittedly, both are more objective than my own observations and feel, but I trust my subjectivity more than theirs.

 

Errors aren't subjective? The last few years Ripken played short it was almost impossible for him to be "credited" with an error.

 

If they came out with a new "objective" passer rating that said that Dan Marino was the worst passer of any QB with more than 30 starts in NFL history, I don't need to examine the methodology to know it's bullshit. I saw him play too many games.

I'd actually like to see someone a) come up with something that would produce that and b ) see him try to defend it. I'm sure it would have to give a prominent role to rushing stats, where he may have been one of the worst.

[LedRush]

Derek Jeter's a legitimately great player. Drawing lines at 190 hits and putting in something like a slugging percentage of .400 is a mostly meaningless stat, like proving Palmeiro was one of the top HR hitters of all time by listing players with the most seasons hitting at least 38 HRs.

 

Not to mention that others whose fielding prowess fell off as badly as Jeter;s did in his later years got moved out of the position and had no chance to add to their hit totals.

I don't entirely disagree with you, but Jeter has NOT fallen off. He was hurt last year, is all. In his last full season, he hit above his lifetime average led the league in hits! I have complete and utter faith he'll hit at least .290. Hardly falling off, if you ask me.

 

He is making the argument that despite incredibly good fielding percentage and gold gloves, Jeter's range makes him the shittiest shortstop ever to play the game (defensively).

Yep. That's exactly what I'm arguing.

 

What a fabulous, incisive post! :clap: :clap: :clap:

 

Is Aunt Flow visiting?

No....I'm just a little jealous since I appear to have missed out on the great deal on straw you got.

 

You took my summary of what you were saying seriously? Jesus, lighten up.

If you weren't serious then I stand corrected.

 

Better yet if it was a veiled criticism of traditional fielding statistics and a mockery of those who vote for the GGs.

 

I 100% wasn't serious that that was your position, though I did want to convey:

 

1. You were talking about defense

2. That I don't put too much stock in the new fielding statistics

Fair enough...you fooled me.

 

But I would be interested (though this might not be the place to do it) why you're not a fan of the new fielding statistics.

 

They are based on more information than the traditional statistics and would appear to be based on information relevant to the defensive value of a player, therefore they should add to the sum total of the knowledge of a player. What, in your opinion, is not true about that statement?

 

I think the problem for me is twofold:

 

1. people often treat them as gospel, when, in fact, the new stats don't account for the many differences in each team's decision or in how each ball is hit or how fast a play needs to be made based on the situation

 

2. they contradict what I see with my own eyes

 

Yes, they provide more information than before, but the limitations of traditional fielding statistics are immediately evident, while the limitations of the new ones seem much more hidden (perhaps because of their complexity and subjective nature).

I can't disagree with point #1...especially the part about anything being treated with skepticism instead of being taken as gospel. In general, though they add from the sum total of knowledge, not detract from it. At this point, you can't measure all of those things perfectly (and they're all things which would be valuable to measure.

 

W/r/t point #2, I tend to trust things that can be measured from an objective viewpoint more than I do my own observations, which can be biased and/or incorrectly observed/measured. At least with the new defensive metrics, there is an attempt to be objective about things. I believe that those who are developing the metrics are doing so in an attempt to increase knowledge about the subject they're studying, and will change the metrics if they are shown to be faulty or incomplete.

 

I understand what you're saying w/r/t #2, and I also like objective stats. But I would argue the old stats may provide "less" information than the new ones, the old ones are more objective. I'm not saying they're better, but they are clearly defined and don't involve people watching each play and saying "I think this happened in this way". Admittedly, both are more objective than my own observations and feel, but I trust my subjectivity more than theirs.

 

Errors aren't subjective? The last few years Ripken played short it was almost impossible for him to be "credited" with an error.

 

If they came out with a new "objective" passer rating that said that Dan Marino was the worst passer of any QB with more than 30 starts in NFL history, I don't need to examine the methodology to know it's bullshit. I saw him play too many games.

I'd actually like to see someone a) come up with something that would produce that and b ) see him try to defend it. I'm sure it would have to give a prominent role to rushing stats, where he may have been one of the worst.

 

I said they are "more objective". Errors are subjective.

[Disk98]

I just hope I can contain my emotions during his last game…my chest grows heavy just thinking about it.

[Lost In Xanadu]

http://thumbnails.hulu.com/825/40031825/40031825_384x288_generated.jpg

http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/.element/img/4.0/global/swapper/201107/110708.09.jpg

[Disk98]

No! I can't bear to see this thread die! C'mon, doesn't anyone else want to pay tribute to the Yankee Captain?

[Disk98]

One day until Jeter begins his farewell season…

[Disk98]

Anyone see Derek's awesome grab today?

[sitboaf]

Being a Red Sox fan, I have an inherent hatred for the New York Bankees.

 

However:

1. I've never had a problem with Derek Jeter, Joe Torre or Mariano Rivera. All are class-act Hall of Famers.

 

2. Sweet Caroline played in the Stadium last year after the marathon bombings, so at least the Evil Empire knows when to take a break from being evil. That was one helluva gesture.

 

3. Derek Jeter was a fabulous hitter, a great leader, a clutch performer, and an atrocious defender. I also do not need stats to confirm or deny what I saw with my own eyes. He stunk. Obviously, with all the positives, he had to stay in the lineup, but SS wasn't the best place for him.

 

4. Thank God the Sox finally won the Series in 2004, because, not only did it erase 5,000 horrible memories that were embedded in every part of my being, but it justified the very recent and traumatic trade of Nomar Garciaparra:

In a game against the Yankees that year, Nomar was on the bench because maybe he got hurt during BP when everyone knew it was when he was goofing around with Mia Hamm and also maybe taking too many "vitamins".

But Nomah is still way bettah than Jeetah! Jeetah sux!

 

Except Nomar was being a baby this day, sitting the game out.

And Jeter was diving into the stands for a pop foul and bloodying his face on some slob's plate of nachos while making a great catch.

 

And then I had to admit I'd rather have their guy than my guy playing short.

[rushfanforever!]

No Posada, Mo, or Jeter soon? What a pattern!!! I knew this was coming at some point, but this Yankee fan feels really lost now....it's just not the same Yankees game anymore...Jeter is the man!! Sorry, but I can't watch Jeter's last season (too upsetting, just like Mo's last year.) No hate is intended here....just really sad.... :boohoo: :boohoo:

[Disk98]

No Posada, Mo, or Jeter soon? What a pattern!!! I knew this was coming at some point, but this Yankee fan feels really lost now....it's just not the same Yankees game anymore...Jeter is the man!! Sorry, but I can't watch Jeter's last season (too upsetting, just like Mo's last year.) No hate is intended here....just really sad.... :boohoo: :boohoo:

Hey, don't cry. We have plenty of good young pitching to be excited about. :)

[rushfanforever!]

No Posada, Mo, or Jeter soon? What a pattern!!! I knew this was coming at some point, but this Yankee fan feels really lost now....it's just not the same Yankees game anymore...Jeter is the man!! Sorry, but I can't watch Jeter's last season (too upsetting, just like Mo's last year.) No hate is intended here....just really sad.... :boohoo: :boohoo:

Hey, don't cry. We have plenty of good young pitching to be excited about. :)

 

Well, I had my hopes on Joba C years ago, but all that hype never really came to much....

[LedRush]

No Posada, Mo, or Jeter soon? What a pattern!!! I knew this was coming at some point, but this Yankee fan feels really lost now....it's just not the same Yankees game anymore...Jeter is the man!! Sorry, but I can't watch Jeter's last season (too upsetting, just like Mo's last year.) No hate is intended here....just really sad.... :boohoo: :boohoo:

Hey, don't cry. We have plenty of good young pitching to be excited about. :)

 

We do?

[Disk98]

No Posada, Mo, or Jeter soon? What a pattern!!! I knew this was coming at some point, but this Yankee fan feels really lost now....it's just not the same Yankees game anymore...Jeter is the man!! Sorry, but I can't watch Jeter's last season (too upsetting, just like Mo's last year.) No hate is intended here....just really sad.... :boohoo: :boohoo:

Hey, don't cry. We have plenty of good young pitching to be excited about. :)

Yeah. Tanaka, Nova, Pineda, Warren, Betances.

 

We do?

[Disk98]

First homer of his final year the other day. Go Jeter!

[Disk98]

No!!! This thread cannot die!

[laughedatbytime]

Did Jeter get named to the AL All Star team?

 

I watched the broadcast but I don't know if anyone mentioned his name... :)

[Disk98]

Did Jeter get named to the AL All Star team?

 

I watched the broadcast but I don't know if anyone mentioned his name... :)

Oh, yes he did. He led off for the AL and went 2-for-2.

[laughedatbytime]

Did Jeter get named to the AL All Star team?

 

I watched the broadcast but I don't know if anyone mentioned his name... :)

Oh, yes he did. He led off for the AL and went 2-for-2.

Hmmm...you think they would have mentioned it at least once, then....

[Rick N. Backer]

Did Jeter get named to the AL All Star team?

 

I watched the broadcast but I don't know if anyone mentioned his name... :)

Oh, yes he did. He led off for the AL and went 2-for-2.

Hmmm...you think they would have mentioned it at least once, then....

 

They did. When Wainwright grooved one to him. I'm sure the eventual NL champion will be pleased that Wainwright made sure that Jeter got a hit in (what should be) an exhibition game.

[laughedatbytime]

Did Jeter get named to the AL All Star team?

 

I watched the broadcast but I don't know if anyone mentioned his name... :)

Oh, yes he did. He led off for the AL and went 2-for-2.

Hmmm...you think they would have mentioned it at least once, then....

 

They did. When Wainwright grooved one to him. I'm sure the eventual NL champion will be pleased that Wainwright made sure that Jeter got a hit in (what should be) an exhibition game.

Selig should have been deposed the first time he suggested it. But part of me thinks that MLB got what they deserved for letting a used car salesman run their business.

[g under p]

Why would they be any haters the guy is simply a great player period. Jeter gets ALL MY RESPECT he is amongst the best ever in baseball. To come through this steroid/drug induced era spit shining clean is heroic all by itself.

 

I tip my RED SOX hat with grace to one of the best @ this sport baseball. Oh let me also he was truly

g under p.....Grace Under Pressure.

[Rick N. Backer]

Did Jeter get named to the AL All Star team?

 

I watched the broadcast but I don't know if anyone mentioned his name... :)

Oh, yes he did. He led off for the AL and went 2-for-2.

Hmmm...you think they would have mentioned it at least once, then....

 

They did. When Wainwright grooved one to him. I'm sure the eventual NL champion will be pleased that Wainwright made sure that Jeter got a hit in (what should be) an exhibition game.

Selig should have been deposed the first time he suggested it. But part of me thinks that MLB got what they deserved for letting a used car salesman run their business.

 

That people bitched and moaned about an exhibition game ending in a tie never ceases to make me laugh.

[laughedatbytime]

Did Jeter get named to the AL All Star team?

 

I watched the broadcast but I don't know if anyone mentioned his name... :)

Oh, yes he did. He led off for the AL and went 2-for-2.

Hmmm...you think they would have mentioned it at least once, then....

 

They did. When Wainwright grooved one to him. I'm sure the eventual NL champion will be pleased that Wainwright made sure that Jeter got a hit in (what should be) an exhibition game.

Selig should have been deposed the first time he suggested it. But part of me thinks that MLB got what they deserved for letting a used car salesman run their business.

 

That people bitched and moaned about an exhibition game ending in a tie never ceases to make me laugh.

They should have taken a clue from a real sport and ended it in a HR derby. Of course, it WAS only an exhibition game, not the playoffs or WS; in which case ending it with a HR Derby could have boosted the popularity of baseball and made it a real World Sport...