Thank You, Derek Jeter (please no haters!!!)

[Disk98]

As you probably know, Derek Jeter has announced his retirement following the 2014 season. Here is where you can show your appreciation for the Yankee captain.

 

THANK YOU, DEREK!

[ReRushed]

I watched his entire career. Was he ever the best shortstop in the game? Probably not. But, he was one of the most consistent and reliable baseball players I have ever seen. Who else was there who was as consistent? Mariano Rivera. It's going to be a tough transition...

[invisible airwave]

Hate?

 

No, that's reserved for that former SS turned 3B who's been suspended for a year. At least Jeter EARNS his salary. I'm an Angels fan but I do respect his work ethic and hustle. Ditto Rivera. A Fraud blows.

[Babycat]

Thank you, Derek. :)

[lerxt1990]

Great ballplayer, classy, and extremely baseball smart. Bravo DJ!

[Syrinx]

If you think about it we don't get to witness the careers of an all time great too often. There will only be a handful for each of us. I feel privileged to have watched Jeter's career.

[Mara]

Hate the Yankees but Jeter is a true superstar, 100% class all the way. I've also read/heard several accounts of what a genuinely nice guy he is. Baseball needs more like him.

[alphseeker]

Hate the Yankees but Jeter is a true superstar, 100% class all the way. I've also read/heard several accounts of what a genuinely nice guy he is. Baseball needs more like him.

Yeah sadly I have let my insane hatred of everything that is evil with the Yankees cloud my appreciation of Jeter. It didn't matter what he did, I hated him with the rest especially being a BoSox fan. I apologize :| and acknowledge he was a great player well deserving of all the accolades he will receive. Edited February 15, 2014 by alphseeker

[thesweetscience]

I am curious to hear who people think was a better overall shortstop than Jeter? Especially in the modern era. If you look at his numbers he is easily top 3 or 4 of all time if not number one. First ballot hall of fame inductee.

 

Who was better and why?

[laughedatbytime]

I am curious to hear who people think was a better overall shortstop than Jeter? Especially in the modern era. If you look at his numbers he is easily top 3 or 4 of all time if not number one. First ballot hall of fame inductee.

 

Who was better and why?

Peak value or career value? And for players who played a significant majority of games at SS or based only on what they did at SS?

 

If it's career value, he's up there with anyone but Wagner (I know, not modern era). Either him, Ozzy Smith, or Cal...

 

If it's peak value, there are a number of players that could hang with him (more if you don't include guys on roids—well, one particular guy) if not exceed his performance.

 

Obviously, he's a first ballot guy who would only not be unanimous because there's always some a-hole writer(s) who won't vote for someone on the first ballot. Should be 98%+ though.

[thesweetscience]

I am curious to hear who people think was a better overall shortstop than Jeter? Especially in the modern era. If you look at his numbers he is easily top 3 or 4 of all time if not number one. First ballot hall of fame inductee.

 

Who was better and why?

Peak value or career value? And for players who played a significant majority of games at SS or based only on what they did at SS?

 

If it's career value, he's up there with anyone but Wagner (I know, not modern era). Either him, Ozzy Smith, or Cal...

 

If it's peak value, there are a number of players that could hang with him (more if you don't include guys on roids—well, one particular guy) if not exceed his performance.

 

Obviously, he's a first ballot guy who would only not be unanimous because there's always some a-hole writer(s) who won't vote for someone on the first ballot. Should be 98%+ though.

I am talking career numbers.

 

Wagner played many positions. By all accounts he is the best all around baseball player on this list but its hard to quantify given when he played. It was a much different game then.

 

Cal split positions and he hit for more power but didn't have the BA that Jeter has.

 

Ozzie was a stud defensively but didn't have near the offensive stats of Derek or Cal.

 

Jeter had good offensive numbers and was a smart and solid defensive player as well.

 

A case could be made for all 4 of them but I don't think any of them is a clear cut number one in terms of "best career shortstop."

[Chicken hawk]

Thankyou Derek . For making the game honest, and talented.

[Narps]

I am curious to hear who people think was a better overall shortstop than Jeter? Especially in the modern era. If you look at his numbers he is easily top 3 or 4 of all time if not number one. First ballot hall of fame inductee.

 

Who was better and why?

Peak value or career value? And for players who played a significant majority of games at SS or based only on what they did at SS?

 

If it's career value, he's up there with anyone but Wagner (I know, not modern era). Either him, Ozzy Smith, or Cal...

 

If it's peak value, there are a number of players that could hang with him (more if you don't include guys on roids—well, one particular guy) if not exceed his performance.

 

Obviously, he's a first ballot guy who would only not be unanimous because there's always some a-hole writer(s) who won't vote for someone on the first ballot. Should be 98%+ though.

I am talking career numbers.

 

Wagner played many positions. By all accounts he is the best all around baseball player on this list but its hard to quantify given when he played. It was a much different game then.

 

Cal split positions and he hit for more power but didn't have the BA that Jeter has.

 

Ozzie was a stud defensively but didn't have near the offensive stats of Derek or Cal.

 

Jeter had good offensive numbers and was a smart and solid defensive player as well.

 

A case could be made for all 4 of them but I don't think any of them is a clear cut number one in terms of "best career shortstop."

No trying to hate at all but I think an argument could be made that Robin Yount was better...

[laughedatbytime]

I am curious to hear who people think was a better overall shortstop than Jeter? Especially in the modern era. If you look at his numbers he is easily top 3 or 4 of all time if not number one. First ballot hall of fame inductee.

 

Who was better and why?

Peak value or career value? And for players who played a significant majority of games at SS or based only on what they did at SS?

 

If it's career value, he's up there with anyone but Wagner (I know, not modern era). Either him, Ozzy Smith, or Cal...

 

If it's peak value, there are a number of players that could hang with him (more if you don't include guys on roids—well, one particular guy) if not exceed his performance.

 

Obviously, he's a first ballot guy who would only not be unanimous because there's always some a-hole writer(s) who won't vote for someone on the first ballot. Should be 98%+ though.

I am talking career numbers.

 

Wagner played many positions. By all accounts he is the best all around baseball player on this list but its hard to quantify given when he played. It was a much different game then.

 

Cal split positions and he hit for more power but didn't have the BA that Jeter has.

 

Ozzie was a stud defensively but didn't have near the offensive stats of Derek or Cal.

 

Jeter had good offensive numbers and was a smart and solid defensive player as well.

 

A case could be made for all 4 of them but I don't think any of them is a clear cut number one in terms of "best career shortstop."

Unless you want to discount the accomplishments of non-modern players by half or more, Wagner was the best career SS. I don't know what a fair adjustment is so I wouldn't argue that isn't warranted, but if you take the stats without the context of time, it is clear that Wagner is the best, he was the second greatest hitter in baseball history if you look at just the stats compared to league, even better than Williams, Mays, or Cobb.

 

The other three all have their strengths....Jeter OBP, Ripken power, and Ozzie defense. If you look at the WAR stat used by Sabermetricians Jeter has the best offensive stats but had negative defensive value,, Ripken was close in hitting (albeit he got there in a far different way...but he also played in an era with a completely different context for hitters for the first decade of his career), and Ozzie trailed massively in offense but made it for it and more on defensive. If I had to pick I'd put (of these three) Ripken #1, Jeter #2, and Ozzie #3, but if you want to put Jeter on top of these, I wouldn't really argue that hard.

[thesweetscience]

I am curious to hear who people think was a better overall shortstop than Jeter? Especially in the modern era. If you look at his numbers he is easily top 3 or 4 of all time if not number one. First ballot hall of fame inductee.

 

Who was better and why?

Peak value or career value? And for players who played a significant majority of games at SS or based only on what they did at SS?

 

If it's career value, he's up there with anyone but Wagner (I know, not modern era). Either him, Ozzy Smith, or Cal...

 

If it's peak value, there are a number of players that could hang with him (more if you don't include guys on roids—well, one particular guy) if not exceed his performance.

 

Obviously, he's a first ballot guy who would only not be unanimous because there's always some a-hole writer(s) who won't vote for someone on the first ballot. Should be 98%+ though.

I am talking career numbers.

 

Wagner played many positions. By all accounts he is the best all around baseball player on this list but its hard to quantify given when he played. It was a much different game then.

 

Cal split positions and he hit for more power but didn't have the BA that Jeter has.

 

Ozzie was a stud defensively but didn't have near the offensive stats of Derek or Cal.

 

Jeter had good offensive numbers and was a smart and solid defensive player as well.

 

A case could be made for all 4 of them but I don't think any of them is a clear cut number one in terms of "best career shortstop."

No trying to hate at all but I think an argument could be made that Robin Yount was better...

I forgot about him. Also great SS.

 

I am not saying Jeter is the best SS ever but I don't think he should be automatically dismissed from the conversation.

[laughedatbytime]

I am curious to hear who people think was a better overall shortstop than Jeter? Especially in the modern era. If you look at his numbers he is easily top 3 or 4 of all time if not number one. First ballot hall of fame inductee.

 

Who was better and why?

Peak value or career value? And for players who played a significant majority of games at SS or based only on what they did at SS?

 

If it's career value, he's up there with anyone but Wagner (I know, not modern era). Either him, Ozzy Smith, or Cal...

 

If it's peak value, there are a number of players that could hang with him (more if you don't include guys on roids—well, one particular guy) if not exceed his performance.

 

Obviously, he's a first ballot guy who would only not be unanimous because there's always some a-hole writer(s) who won't vote for someone on the first ballot. Should be 98%+ though.

I am talking career numbers.

 

Wagner played many positions. By all accounts he is the best all around baseball player on this list but its hard to quantify given when he played. It was a much different game then.

 

Cal split positions and he hit for more power but didn't have the BA that Jeter has.

 

Ozzie was a stud defensively but didn't have near the offensive stats of Derek or Cal.

 

Jeter had good offensive numbers and was a smart and solid defensive player as well.

 

A case could be made for all 4 of them but I don't think any of them is a clear cut number one in terms of "best career shortstop."

No trying to hate at all but I think an argument could be made that Robin Yount was better...

Except that Yount didn't play SS beyond the age of 28.

 

He WAS a better golfer though. :)

[Narps]

I am curious to hear who people think was a better overall shortstop than Jeter? Especially in the modern era. If you look at his numbers he is easily top 3 or 4 of all time if not number one. First ballot hall of fame inductee.

 

Who was better and why?

Peak value or career value? And for players who played a significant majority of games at SS or based only on what they did at SS?

 

If it's career value, he's up there with anyone but Wagner (I know, not modern era). Either him, Ozzy Smith, or Cal...

 

If it's peak value, there are a number of players that could hang with him (more if you don't include guys on roids—well, one particular guy) if not exceed his performance.

 

Obviously, he's a first ballot guy who would only not be unanimous because there's always some a-hole writer(s) who won't vote for someone on the first ballot. Should be 98%+ though.

I am talking career numbers.

 

Wagner played many positions. By all accounts he is the best all around baseball player on this list but its hard to quantify given when he played. It was a much different game then.

 

Cal split positions and he hit for more power but didn't have the BA that Jeter has.

 

Ozzie was a stud defensively but didn't have near the offensive stats of Derek or Cal.

 

Jeter had good offensive numbers and was a smart and solid defensive player as well.

 

A case could be made for all 4 of them but I don't think any of them is a clear cut number one in terms of "best career shortstop."

No trying to hate at all but I think an argument could be made that Robin Yount was better...

I forgot about him. Also great SS.

 

I am not saying Jeter is the best SS ever but I don't think he should be automatically dismissed from the conversation.

Agreed. Yount was certainly a better center fielder....

[thesweetscience]

I am curious to hear who people think was a better overall shortstop than Jeter? Especially in the modern era. If you look at his numbers he is easily top 3 or 4 of all time if not number one. First ballot hall of fame inductee.

 

Who was better and why?

Peak value or career value? And for players who played a significant majority of games at SS or based only on what they did at SS?

 

If it's career value, he's up there with anyone but Wagner (I know, not modern era). Either him, Ozzy Smith, or Cal...

 

If it's peak value, there are a number of players that could hang with him (more if you don't include guys on roids—well, one particular guy) if not exceed his performance.

 

Obviously, he's a first ballot guy who would only not be unanimous because there's always some a-hole writer(s) who won't vote for someone on the first ballot. Should be 98%+ though.

I am talking career numbers.

 

Wagner played many positions. By all accounts he is the best all around baseball player on this list but its hard to quantify given when he played. It was a much different game then.

 

Cal split positions and he hit for more power but didn't have the BA that Jeter has.

 

Ozzie was a stud defensively but didn't have near the offensive stats of Derek or Cal.

 

Jeter had good offensive numbers and was a smart and solid defensive player as well.

 

A case could be made for all 4 of them but I don't think any of them is a clear cut number one in terms of "best career shortstop."

Unless you want to discount the accomplishments of non-modern players by half or more, Wagner was the best career SS. I don't know what a fair adjustment is so I wouldn't argue that isn't warranted, but if you take the stats without the context of time, it is clear that Wagner is the best, he was the second greatest hitter in baseball history if you look at just the stats compared to league, even better than Williams, Mays, or Cobb.

 

The other three all have their strengths....Jeter OBP, Ripken power, and Ozzie defense. If you look at the WAR stat used by Sabermetricians Jeter has the best offensive stats but had negative defensive value,, Ripken was close in hitting (albeit he got there in a far different way...but he also played in an era with a completely different context for hitters for the first decade of his career), and Ozzie trailed massively in offense but made it for it and more on defensive. If I had to pick I'd put (of these three) Ripken #1, Jeter #2, and Ozzie #3, but if you want to put Jeter on top of these, I wouldn't really argue that hard.

This is my point. I am not sure who I would put at the top but I would not dismiss any of these guys from the discussion.

 

I agree it is hard to measure guys who played so long ago. None of us saw them play. My understanding was that Wagner played many positions so he probably belongs in the conversation of greatest player of all time more than greatest SS of all time. In the end we are splitting hairs.

[laughedatbytime]

I am curious to hear who people think was a better overall shortstop than Jeter? Especially in the modern era. If you look at his numbers he is easily top 3 or 4 of all time if not number one. First ballot hall of fame inductee.

 

Who was better and why?

Peak value or career value? And for players who played a significant majority of games at SS or based only on what they did at SS?

 

If it's career value, he's up there with anyone but Wagner (I know, not modern era). Either him, Ozzy Smith, or Cal...

 

If it's peak value, there are a number of players that could hang with him (more if you don't include guys on roids—well, one particular guy) if not exceed his performance.

 

Obviously, he's a first ballot guy who would only not be unanimous because there's always some a-hole writer(s) who won't vote for someone on the first ballot. Should be 98%+ though.

I am talking career numbers.

 

Wagner played many positions. By all accounts he is the best all around baseball player on this list but its hard to quantify given when he played. It was a much different game then.

 

Cal split positions and he hit for more power but didn't have the BA that Jeter has.

 

Ozzie was a stud defensively but didn't have near the offensive stats of Derek or Cal.

 

Jeter had good offensive numbers and was a smart and solid defensive player as well.

 

A case could be made for all 4 of them but I don't think any of them is a clear cut number one in terms of "best career shortstop."

Unless you want to discount the accomplishments of non-modern players by half or more, Wagner was the best career SS. I don't know what a fair adjustment is so I wouldn't argue that isn't warranted, but if you take the stats without the context of time, it is clear that Wagner is the best, he was the second greatest hitter in baseball history if you look at just the stats compared to league, even better than Williams, Mays, or Cobb.

 

The other three all have their strengths....Jeter OBP, Ripken power, and Ozzie defense. If you look at the WAR stat used by Sabermetricians Jeter has the best offensive stats but had negative defensive value,, Ripken was close in hitting (albeit he got there in a far different way...but he also played in an era with a completely different context for hitters for the first decade of his career), and Ozzie trailed massively in offense but made it for it and more on defensive. If I had to pick I'd put (of these three) Ripken #1, Jeter #2, and Ozzie #3, but if you want to put Jeter on top of these, I wouldn't really argue that hard.

This is my point. I am not sure who I would put at the top but I would not dismiss any of these guys from the discussion.

 

I agree it is hard to measure guys who played so long ago. None of us saw them play. My understanding was that Wagner played many positions so he probably belongs in the conversation of greatest player of all time more than greatest SS of all time. In the end we are splitting hairs.

Wagner's best years were at SS, where he played from the age of 29 to 42(!) and part time at 27 or 28. Only in his first three years did he not play SS (he played his first MLB game at a fairly advanced age for a great player at 23. and didn't play 100 games till he was 24. He had more offensive value as a SS than Jeter did though he played fewer years.

 

His baseball reference page...

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/w/wagneho01.shtml

[Narps]

None of us saw who play? :codger: :sigh:

[laughedatbytime]

None of us saw who play? :codger: :sigh:

None of us saw who play? :codger: :sigh:

 

Good point. Did you see Wagner as a Colonel or just a Pirate?

[Narps]

None of us saw who play? :codger: :sigh:

None of us saw who play? :codger: :sigh:

 

Good point. Did you see Wagner as a Colonel or just a Pirate?

I thought we were talking about Yount or Ozzy. Anyone after about 1969, I certainly saw play and plenty.... :)

[laughedatbytime]

None of us saw who play? :codger: :sigh:

None of us saw who play? :codger: :sigh:

 

Good point. Did you see Wagner as a Colonel or just a Pirate?

I thought we were talking about Yount or Ozzy. Anyone after about 1969, I certainly saw play and plenty.... :)

I was kidding. I only thought you went back to the Waners...:)

[thesweetscience]

None of us saw who play? :codger: :sigh:

None of us saw who play? :codger: :sigh:

 

Good point. Did you see Wagner as a Colonel or just a Pirate?

I thought we were talking about Yount or Ozzy. Anyone after about 1969, I certainly saw play and plenty.... :)

I was talking about Wagner.

 

Pitching was different then and the equipment was different too. It's hard to compare how these guys would stack up in the modern era. Maybe they would be God like or maybe they would just be average.

[laughedatbytime]

None of us saw who play? :codger: :sigh:

None of us saw who play? :codger: :sigh:

 

Good point. Did you see Wagner as a Colonel or just a Pirate?

I thought we were talking about Yount or Ozzy. Anyone after about 1969, I certainly saw play and plenty.... :)

I was talking about Wagner.

 

Pitching was different then and the equipment was different too. It's hard to compare how these guys would stack up in the modern era. Maybe they would be God like or maybe they would just be average.

This is a fascinating topic. I think the case could be made that the best players in the 1910s would have trouble cracking a major league lineup today. But this is unprovable of course.

 

Walter Johnson had a 90 MPH fastball (though who knows what kind of motion he had on it). That's average today.

 

Maybe Walter Johnson's most impressive achievement was running for a Maryland Congressional seat as a Republican and only losing by 6%.