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Hold Your Fire: the directors' cuts?


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Poll: Hold Your Fire or Fire away (36 member(s) have cast votes)

If HYF had been limited to 22'30" per side, would it have been perfect?

  1. Nah, I wouldn't like it anyway. (4 votes [11.11%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 11.11%

  2. No way, José Feliciano, leave it the way it is! (24 votes [66.67%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 66.67%

  3. Absolutely. See my track list is in the comments section. (8 votes [22.22%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 22.22%

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#1 Ged Lent's sis

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 04:05 AM

Motion:
Had Hold Your Fire been limited to the time constraints of vinyl—22'30" per side—it might have been perfect.

Background explanation:
If you're like me, the album is special in a great way, but also singular in a not-so-great way. It starts off wonderfully and maintains a certain balance & flow over the first few songs, but then loses momentum and remains uneven right until the end. This is also singular in that it is the very first time I ever felt this way about a RUSH album.

At one time I would have called the album 'incomplete', but realize now that it is quite simply too long and would benefit from the removal of a pair of songs.

Actually, my initial instinct was to remove three songs. I won't say which ones just yet. But giving it more thought, I imagine one of the three perceived weakest would jump in quality with the removal of it's offending twin.

Whatdayathink??

This post is inspired by the recent bump of that other thread by vinciedaltrey.
http://www.therushfo...e/page__st__380

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#2 JohnnyBlaze

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 04:17 AM

No. Some 'mistakes' lead us to do better things.

#3 LedRush

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 07:24 AM

It, like most every album from Signals through S&A, had some songs that were a bit weaker than most Rush songs.  But I wouldn't want them not to be here.  In fact, for a director's cut I was expecting MORE songs.  As Johnny said, some expirement a don't work out, but lead to greater things.  Perhaps if he band didn't have High Water or Tail Shan, they wouldn't have seen the need to move into more of a trio sound again.

#4 Tombstone Mountain

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 07:39 AM

yeah missteps can lead to greater missteps...take Presto for example

#5 Cyclonus X-1

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 07:44 AM

I'd have been happier with the record had it not included Turn the Page and Prime Mover.

They could've written the songs and learned from them without including them, thus making me happy and not sacrificing any beneficial learning experiences.  Doesn't matter what fans of those songs think, of course.

#6 JohnnyBlaze

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 08:12 AM

View PostCyclonus X-1, on 15 August 2013 - 07:44 AM, said:

I'd have been happier with the record had it not included Turn the Page and Prime Mover.

They could've written the songs and learned from them without including them, thus making me happy and not sacrificing any beneficial learning experiences.  Doesn't matter what fans of those songs think, of course.
I'm guessing that Rush has a lot more to learn about recording than they do about writing. Writing is only half the process for recording artists, right?

#7 JohnnyBlaze

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 08:15 AM

View PostTombstone Mountain, on 15 August 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

yeah missteps can lead to greater missteps...take Presto for example
imho, RTB to Counterparts supports my earlier post. And I can say the same about S&A to CA

#8 Cyclonus X-1

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 08:21 AM

View PostJohnnyBlaze, on 15 August 2013 - 08:12 AM, said:

View PostCyclonus X-1, on 15 August 2013 - 07:44 AM, said:

I'd have been happier with the record had it not included Turn the Page and Prime Mover.

They could've written the songs and learned from them without including them, thus making me happy and not sacrificing any beneficial learning experiences.  Doesn't matter what fans of those songs think, of course.
I'm guessing that Rush has a lot more to learn about recording than they do about writing. Writing is only half the process for recording artists, right?
Great.  They could've recorded those songs too then and still not included them on the album.  Save 'em for some cash-grab disc down the line that the "completists" would pounce on.

#9 J2112YYZ

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 08:34 AM

The only time the song quality and momentum drop for me is on the last two tracks. I think the album is great up until Tai Shan just about kills everything. High Water is a decent tune but it just isn't on the same level of the first eight songs. If they had made this like the three albums before it and only had eight songs, ending the album with Turn The Page, it would be pretty close to a perfect album for me.

#10 JohnnyBlaze

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 08:36 AM

View PostCyclonus X-1, on 15 August 2013 - 08:21 AM, said:

View PostJohnnyBlaze, on 15 August 2013 - 08:12 AM, said:

View PostCyclonus X-1, on 15 August 2013 - 07:44 AM, said:

I'd have been happier with the record had it not included Turn the Page and Prime Mover.

They could've written the songs and learned from them without including them, thus making me happy and not sacrificing any beneficial learning experiences.  Doesn't matter what fans of those songs think, of course.
I'm guessing that Rush has a lot more to learn about recording than they do about writing. Writing is only half the process for recording artists, right?
Great.  They could've recorded those songs too then and still not included them on the album.  Save 'em for some cash-grab disc down the line that the "completists" would pounce on.
All the interviews they've done in the past regarding NOT releasing songs they've written point to this same point: They write, record, AND put it on the album. Nothing is thrown away. That's what our favorite band has been doing for nearly 40 years. Or haven't you noticed?

#11 LedRush

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 08:41 AM

View PostJohnnyBlaze, on 15 August 2013 - 08:15 AM, said:

View PostTombstone Mountain, on 15 August 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

yeah missteps can lead to greater missteps...take Presto for example
imho, RTB to Counterparts supports my earlier post. And I can say the same about S&A to CA

I'll never understand all the RTB hate by hard core Rush fans.  RTB sold about a million more records than presto, winning back old fans scared away by the synth era and getting a whole new generation into Rush.  It sold about as much as CP and Presto combined, and for good reason.  Now, the sound advancement in CP was great, but I don't think that has anything to do with RTB's "failures" and has more to do with the gradual movement back to a sound fit for a trio.

#12 JohnnyBlaze

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 08:50 AM

View PostLedRush, on 15 August 2013 - 08:41 AM, said:

View PostJohnnyBlaze, on 15 August 2013 - 08:15 AM, said:

View PostTombstone Mountain, on 15 August 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

yeah missteps can lead to greater missteps...take Presto for example
imho, RTB to Counterparts supports my earlier post. And I can say the same about S&A to CA

I'll never understand all the RTB hate by hard core Rush fans.  RTB sold about a million more records than presto, winning back old fans scared away by the synth era and getting a whole new generation into Rush.  It sold about as much as CP and Presto combined, and for good reason.  Now, the sound advancement in CP was great, but I don't think that has anything to do with RTB's "failures" and has more to do with the gradual movement back to a sound fit for a trio.
And that's cool. Even though I'm not a big fan of RTB, I still understand that EVERY song on it NEEDED to be done in order for Rush to eventually realize Counterparts (an album I like very much). That's what many on TRF don't seem to realize: ALL of these songs and albums are important to where the band is now.

#13 Cyclonus X-1

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 08:55 AM

View PostJohnnyBlaze, on 15 August 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

View PostCyclonus X-1, on 15 August 2013 - 08:21 AM, said:

View PostJohnnyBlaze, on 15 August 2013 - 08:12 AM, said:

View PostCyclonus X-1, on 15 August 2013 - 07:44 AM, said:

I'd have been happier with the record had it not included Turn the Page and Prime Mover.

They could've written the songs and learned from them without including them, thus making me happy and not sacrificing any beneficial learning experiences.  Doesn't matter what fans of those songs think, of course.
I'm guessing that Rush has a lot more to learn about recording than they do about writing. Writing is only half the process for recording artists, right?
Great.  They could've recorded those songs too then and still not included them on the album.  Save 'em for some cash-grab disc down the line that the "completists" would pounce on.
All the interviews they've done in the past regarding NOT releasing songs they've written point to this same point: They write, record, AND put it on the album. Nothing is thrown away. That's what our favorite band has been doing for nearly 40 years. Or haven't you noticed?

Have you not noticed that we're discussing hypotheticals here?  And I think responding to this particular hypothetical with the ol' "they needed to learn from their mistakes" line is a little silly.  There's no reason a band can't write, record, and learn from bad songs without anyone else having to endure them.

#14 bathory

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 08:58 AM

good album, I even like high water.

#15 JohnnyBlaze

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 09:08 AM

View PostCyclonus X-1, on 15 August 2013 - 08:55 AM, said:

View PostJohnnyBlaze, on 15 August 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

View PostCyclonus X-1, on 15 August 2013 - 08:21 AM, said:

View PostJohnnyBlaze, on 15 August 2013 - 08:12 AM, said:

View PostCyclonus X-1, on 15 August 2013 - 07:44 AM, said:

I'd have been happier with the record had it not included Turn the Page and Prime Mover.

They could've written the songs and learned from them without including them, thus making me happy and not sacrificing any beneficial learning experiences.  Doesn't matter what fans of those songs think, of course.
I'm guessing that Rush has a lot more to learn about recording than they do about writing. Writing is only half the process for recording artists, right?
Great.  They could've recorded those songs too then and still not included them on the album.  Save 'em for some cash-grab disc down the line that the "completists" would pounce on.
All the interviews they've done in the past regarding NOT releasing songs they've written point to this same point: They write, record, AND put it on the album. Nothing is thrown away. That's what our favorite band has been doing for nearly 40 years. Or haven't you noticed?

Have you not noticed that we're discussing hypotheticals here?  And I think responding to this particular hypothetical with the ol' "they needed to learn from their mistakes" line is a little silly.  There's no reason a band can't write, record, and learn from bad songs without anyone else having to endure them.
Yeah I noticed. I also noticed that your hypothetical involves things the band never does. A reasonable hypothetical would be simply to record a shorter album with the INTENTION of writing fewer songs.

#16 Ged Lent's sis

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 09:12 AM

Maybe I should have elaborated a little more:
Every single album up to and through Power Windows limited itself to 22'30" per side. Hold Your Fire was the first to take advantage of the time-length of the compact disc. Had they crafted the album the way they'd been used to - one'd have to remove at least two songs to achieve the same result**.

I say that it is not a coincidence: they strayed for the first time away from the compositional aggregation they had perfected as a band and as a result created 6-10 minutes of superfluousness.

Obviously opinions will vary, and as Cyclonus X-1 rightly states above, this is just fantasy. No need to make it a re-hatch of everyone's fave/least fave albums/eras.


**to be clear, wider groove/less date tech had been used to achieve fifty minutes on vinyl, but it decreased dynamic range, i.A.

#17 circumstantial tree

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 09:22 AM

It's my fave album and I like it the way it is. I'm glad it had ten songs on it. When I first bought it, seeing them break from the 8 song format was great, so I couldn't wait to hear extra tunes.

#18 Cyclonus X-1

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 09:28 AM

View PostJohnnyBlaze, on 15 August 2013 - 09:08 AM, said:

View PostCyclonus X-1, on 15 August 2013 - 08:55 AM, said:

View PostJohnnyBlaze, on 15 August 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

View PostCyclonus X-1, on 15 August 2013 - 08:21 AM, said:

View PostJohnnyBlaze, on 15 August 2013 - 08:12 AM, said:

View PostCyclonus X-1, on 15 August 2013 - 07:44 AM, said:

I'd have been happier with the record had it not included Turn the Page and Prime Mover.

They could've written the songs and learned from them without including them, thus making me happy and not sacrificing any beneficial learning experiences.  Doesn't matter what fans of those songs think, of course.
I'm guessing that Rush has a lot more to learn about recording than they do about writing. Writing is only half the process for recording artists, right?
Great.  They could've recorded those songs too then and still not included them on the album.  Save 'em for some cash-grab disc down the line that the "completists" would pounce on.
All the interviews they've done in the past regarding NOT releasing songs they've written point to this same point: They write, record, AND put it on the album. Nothing is thrown away. That's what our favorite band has been doing for nearly 40 years. Or haven't you noticed?

Have you not noticed that we're discussing hypotheticals here?  And I think responding to this particular hypothetical with the ol' "they needed to learn from their mistakes" line is a little silly.  There's no reason a band can't write, record, and learn from bad songs without anyone else having to endure them.
Yeah I noticed. I also noticed that your hypothetical involves things the band never does. A reasonable hypothetical would be simply to record a shorter album with the INTENTION of writing fewer songs.

The premise of the whole thread revolves around something the band has never done.  That's kind of the whole point of such hypotheticals: having a little fun discussing "what ifs."  Obviously, things would get rather ridiculous if we took matters beyond the bounds of reason.  But I don't think hypothesizing that for once in their long history Rush decided to do something that billions of other bands do routinely is all that much of a stretch.

#19 JARG

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 09:39 AM

I can take or leave HYF, but as a precursor to Presto, it's invaluable.

#20 LedRush

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 09:52 AM

I have a few issues with this line of thinking.

First, some of their shorter albums had some of their worst songs.  PoW has 3 songs that I don't like much at all.

Second, even most of the songs I don't like still have value to me.  I'd not be happy to even see the 3 songs I reference above not on the album.

Third, the songs I don't like may not be the ones you don't like.  I don't like most of CP, but most hard core fans like them.

Finally, some longer albums have no filler, like CA.  That album cannot be shortened.




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