Bernie Grundman

[Xanaseb]

QUOTE (marblesmike @ Jun 12 2012, 07:08 PM)

For the record I love the album; I just wish it didn't give me a headache every time I want to crank it :-)

But it's your favourite headache right?

 

[third hand grace]

For people who struggle with hearing "sound quality" maybe this will help them?

I'm assuming you have seen HIGH DEF tv, and remember what tv used to look like ?

Well, our ears can HEAR what your eyes SEE.

 

OR...

have you ever seen a well done 3D movie and you can see the DEPTH, etc.

thats our ears.

 

Just trying to help those who honestly don't understand WHY sound quality matters to us....

 

thanks

[Zanadoo]

QUOTE (third hand grace @ Jun 12 2012, 09:44 PM)

For people who struggle with hearing "sound quality" maybe this will help them? I'm assuming you have seen HIGH DEF tv, and remember what tv used to look like ? Well, our ears can HEAR what your eyes SEE. OR... have you ever seen a well done 3D movie and you can see the DEPTH, etc. thats our ears. Just trying to help those who honestly don't understand WHY sound quality matters to us.... thanks

I wish people understood this more. People just hear differently, they're not assholes for criticizing sound quality; it could genuinely be better. Some people's ears just can't hear that.

[losingit2k]

QUOTE (Terrapin @ Jun 12 2012, 08:39 PM)

Well then, I'm off to listen to my MP3 version of Hemispheres which, I hasten to add, sounds infinitely superior to CA despite the "low-quality" and "old fashioned" recording methods... It's all about technique and mic placement ;-) I'll leave you youngun's to continue the debate... :-)

Yeah go and place your mic where the sun doesn't shine! Maybe you can record and then listen to how Full of Sh!t you are!

 

[CrossedSignals]

QUOTE (Mr. Henry Gale @ Jun 12 2012, 05:57 PM)

QUOTE (Merely Space @ Jun 12 2012, 03:39 PM) Sorry, mastering sounds fine to me. Some thought on this.   I. Objectively (IMO) this album is poorly mastered (note: this album might sound better than other modern albums. But it doesn't mean it's technically good, or done well. I'm comparing this album to all albums ever mastered.)   II. Some people don't care, as it's not a big enough of a deal to affect their enjoyment.   III. Some fans take personal offense when you bring up these kind of things. I don't know why, it's almost as if they feel like you are attacking the band.   IV. People just get used to it. After your ears have been pummeled with bad mastering and recording for the last 10 years, your ears adjust to the loudness.   In conclusion, I think those that really think this has GREAT mastering - should really A/B 80s rush albums (or even bands outside of Rush) and tell me CA sounds great.   It really doesn't Mr. Henry Gale and the OP are right on point. It does seem like people are overreacting....   He's talking about the mastering, guys. He's not saying the album is a pile of crap. I wouldn't call Terrapin a troll.   JMO, but I don't think the mastering is very good.

[losingit2k]

QUOTE (marblesmike @ Jun 12 2012, 09:15 PM)

Also, while I agree with the general gist of the OP, Berne Grundman himself didn't master the album. He did master (speaking of Fagen) some Steely Dan lps in the 70s. And how is honestly expressing an opinion trolling? Some of you fanboys need to lighten up when people criticize the Holy Trinity.

I guess Steely Dan isn't using him any more Huh?

 

[GUP1771]

QUOTE (third hand grace @ Jun 12 2012, 09:44 PM)

For people who struggle with hearing "sound quality" maybe this will help them? I'm assuming you have seen HIGH DEF tv, and remember what tv used to look like ? Well, our ears can HEAR what your eyes SEE. OR... have you ever seen a well done 3D movie and you can see the DEPTH, etc. thats our ears. Just trying to help those who honestly don't understand WHY sound quality matters to us.... thanks

I understand that and respect that wholeheartedly. My only complaint has been that people seem to exaggerate the situation. Continuing with your analogy, it's like people are making this album out to be like it's watching tv in black and white or watching tv with poor reception. The words "dreadful" and other words used in this thread are not light words. I think both sides of the spectrum just need to take a step back and relax a bit because both are getting too riled up.

 

Thanks for the explanation!

[losingit2k]

QUOTE (Terrapin @ Jun 12 2012, 07:12 PM)

I'm sorry, but the mastering is appalling. I'm a massive Fanboy or "Fanboi" whatever... but this thing sounds like a carefully executed fart trying to escape from a well weaved, 3-ply piece of perfumed toilet paper... Songs are great, performances are great as well. Such a shame, it could have been immense!

If you'd mix it right? No, if you'd mix it, you would have this thing sounding like a carefully executed tart trying to escape from a Well while trying to remove a 3-ply piece of perfumed toilet paper from your @ss!

 

 

[marblesmike]

QUOTE (losingit2k @ Jun 12 2012, 11:08 PM)

QUOTE (Terrapin @ Jun 12 2012, 07:12 PM) I'm sorry, but the mastering is appalling. I'm a massive  Fanboy or "Fanboi" whatever... but this thing sounds like a carefully executed fart trying to escape from a well weaved, 3-ply piece of perfumed toilet paper... Songs are great, performances are great as well. Such a shame, it could have been immense! If you'd mix it right? No, if you'd mix it, you would have this thing sounding like a carefully executed tart trying to escape from a Well while trying to remove a 3-ply piece of perfumed toilet paper from your @ss!     Dude no need to be a prick. All this because some people don't like the way an album sounds production-wise?   This is a Rush forum and we're discussing a Rush album. Where else would you have us do it?   Sometimes I feel the collective age of this place is 12-17.   And for the record, Grundman mastered Aja, one of the best sounding LPs ever. No need to be snarky. Brian Gardner mastered Clockwork Angels.

[patjnev]

I was wondering while I was listening to it today if I was getting old or something. it seemed to me that the highs were oversaturated . I'm not a audio engineer or anything so I don't know the technical terms . its sounded distorted to me . I have fairly good equipment in my studio to listen on . Bose speakers and such. then I listened to in my truck with stock speakers and the same. In fact on some songs I really wanted to crank the volume and the tinny highs distorted made me turn it down ( this is when I got the too old thought ) . I still anjoyed the album but I was concerned about this .

[Alchemical]

Now THIS is an entertaining thread!

[treeduck]

Thing is Grundman is probably the most storied mastering guy out there, and he does a lot of modern jazz stuff which never sounds brick walled, red lined, compressed or Vapor Trailed...

 

http://albumcredits.com/bernie.grundman#/P...sicAlbums/82657

[ridertoo98]

Maybe it got "bad" sonicly in CD production?? It sounds funny.. on my GF system ,but its old, not knocking hers. A good system, may well bring out flaws.

Dont like the mix, use your high end system and "fix" it.. I havent heard the pay cd yet on mine. Lets try and be nice, new CD , good tunes and now we nit pick??

[Del_Duio]

Well, if you're going to compare it to how something like Counterparts sounds, yeah it's worse but it doesn't sound BAD to me at all.

[Gompers]

QUOTE (marblesmike @ Jun 12 2012, 08:08 PM)

To be fair it's pretty bad but not unbearable.

[Del_Duio]

QUOTE (treeduck @ Jun 13 2012, 05:34 AM)

Thing is Grundman is probably the most storied mastering guy out there, and he does a lot of modern jazz stuff which never sounds brick walled, red lined, compressed or Vapor Trailed... http://albumcredits.com/bernie.grundman#/P...sicAlbums/82657

Hahaha, I wonder if Vapor Trailed is part of the "Sound Engineering Terminology Handbook" now.

Edited June 13, 2012 by Del_Duio

[trenken]

QUOTE (Terrapin @ Jun 12 2012, 06:38 PM)

For mastering a brilliant album so dreadfully... I'm sorry, but I have listened to the ACTUAL CD several times now and it really, truly sucks as regards the sonic clarity. I can almost forgive Nick R and all his enthusiasm, "conducting" prowess, but whatever multi-tracks he passed on to Bernie have been sonically destroyed with over compression. Do the boys care? I don't know. Perhaps they're thinking that having done their collective best in the studio, Nick and Bernie would sort it all out for them... On the other hand, maybe this mess of a production is par the course these days and Rush are just going along with it as a Foo Fighting, "measure of the time" Regardless, the album is a complete and utter sonic mess... Over to you Peter Collins ...

Ted Jensen at Sterling Sound is known to be the absolute best, but he's not cheap. Only bands that sell millions of albums use him usually. Guess Roadrunner didnt want to spring the bill.

[losingit2k]

QUOTE (trenken @ Jun 13 2012, 07:01 AM)

QUOTE (Terrapin @ Jun 12 2012, 06:38 PM) For mastering a brilliant album so dreadfully... I'm sorry, but I have listened to the ACTUAL CD several times now and it really, truly sucks as regards the sonic clarity. I can almost forgive Nick R and all his enthusiasm, "conducting" prowess, but whatever multi-tracks  he passed on to Bernie have been sonically destroyed with over compression. Do the boys care? I don't know. Perhaps they're thinking that having done their collective best in the studio, Nick and Bernie would sort it all out for them... On the other hand, maybe this mess of a production is par the course these days and Rush are just going along with it as a Foo Fighting, "measure of the time" Regardless, the album is a complete and utter sonic mess... Over to you Peter Collins ... Ted Jensen at Sterling Sound is known to be the absolute best, but he's not cheap. Only bands that sell millions of albums use him usually. Guess Roadrunner didnt want to spring the bill. I do admit, I would like to see Peter Collins take a crack at another album, But CA sounds just fine!

[GernTheFish]

I haven't heard any "official" recordings yet, just the stuff on youtube and such. I noticed the sound was a little less than optimal, but thought the actual CD might be better. Now I'm not so sure. Must say that I'm a little disappointed.

[The Mighty Dudad]

I am not an audiophile, nor do I care to be one (IMO they seem to spend more time looking for flaws than enjoying the music). On my decent but far from spectacular home system, Clockwork Angels sounds great!

[marblesmike]

QUOTE (trenken @ Jun 13 2012, 08:01 AM)

QUOTE (Terrapin @ Jun 12 2012, 06:38 PM) For mastering a brilliant album so dreadfully... I'm sorry, but I have listened to the ACTUAL CD several times now and it really, truly sucks as regards the sonic clarity. I can almost forgive Nick R and all his enthusiasm, "conducting" prowess, but whatever multi-tracks  he passed on to Bernie have been sonically destroyed with over compression. Do the boys care? I don't know. Perhaps they're thinking that having done their collective best in the studio, Nick and Bernie would sort it all out for them... On the other hand, maybe this mess of a production is par the course these days and Rush are just going along with it as a Foo Fighting, "measure of the time" Regardless, the album is a complete and utter sonic mess... Over to you Peter Collins ... Ted Jensen at Sterling Sound is known to be the absolute best, but he's not cheap. Only bands that sell millions of albums use him usually. Guess Roadrunner didnt want to spring the bill. George "Porky" Peckham is really good too. Whenever I buy an old 70s album and see his signature in the deadwax I know it is probably mastered really well.   Bob Ludwig used to be good in the 70s and 80. Actually, his mastering of Moving Pictures on vinyl is stellar.   Kevin Gray and Steve Hoffman also do stellar jobs. Too bad Rush didn't get Bernie Grundman himself to master the album or one of the aforementioned engineers.

[losingit2k]

QUOTE (The Mighty Dudad @ Jun 13 2012, 08:00 AM)

I am not an audiophile, nor do I care to be one (IMO they seem to spend more time looking for flaws than enjoying the music). On my decent but far from spectacular home system, Clockwork Angels sounds great!

That's my point exactly. They are more consumed with finding cracks in the armor than actually enjoying it for all its great qualitites. I'm fed up with it! It's time to call it for what it is:

 

A systematic disruption of Modern RUSH!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Gompers]

QUOTE (losingit2k @ Jun 13 2012, 09:29 AM)

QUOTE (The Mighty Dudad @ Jun 13 2012, 08:00 AM) I am not an audiophile, nor do I care to be one (IMO they seem to spend more time looking for flaws than enjoying the music). On my decent but far from spectacular home system, Clockwork Angels sounds great! That's my point exactly. They are more consumed with finding cracks in the armor than actually enjoying it for all its great qualitites. I'm fed up with it! It's time to call it for what it is:   A systematic disruption of Modern RUSH!

[marblesmike]

QUOTE (losingit2k @ Jun 13 2012, 09:29 AM)

QUOTE (The Mighty Dudad @ Jun 13 2012, 08:00 AM) I am not an audiophile, nor do I care to be one (IMO they seem to spend more time looking for flaws than enjoying the music). On my decent but far from spectacular home system, Clockwork Angels sounds great! That's my point exactly. They are more consumed with finding cracks in the armor than actually enjoying it for all its great qualitites. I'm fed up with it! It's time to call it for what it is:   A systematic disruption of Modern RUSH!     While I admire your enthusiasm (I don't think I've ever seen anyone use exclamation points as vigorously as you do!!!!!!!!) you need to realize that some people try to be objective, even about their favorite bands. I love Rush, I have all their albums, dvds, blu-rays, etc, and have seen them more times than any other band. However, I'm allowed to be disappointed with a FACET of their new album. It doesn't make me any less of a fan than you.   I love the material, and think it is the most consistent effort they've done in years, which makes it even more disappointing to me that the sound quality of this album isn't up to par with some of the 80s output. This is a legitimate gripe, and it has the numbers and algorithms behind it to support it. It deserves to be better. With that being said, if you like the way it sounds and don't have any complaints, then great, I'm happy for you and slightly envious that you haven't been cursed with ears as sensitive as mine. But don't belittle me and others who want to objectively discuss something. You're entitled to your opinion that CA sounds great, and I'm entitled to mine.   If this is being a troll, then so be, I'll sit under my bridge and be a troll.   Oh, and to be honest, I think most people who are less than happy with the sonics of CA have said they love the material. So I don't know why some people are getting their thongs all up in a bunch.

Edited June 13, 2012 by marblesmike

[losingit2k]

QUOTE (marblesmike @ Jun 13 2012, 08:45 AM)

QUOTE (losingit2k @ Jun 13 2012, 09:29 AM) QUOTE (The Mighty Dudad @ Jun 13 2012, 08:00 AM) I am not an audiophile, nor do I care to be one (IMO they seem to spend more time looking for flaws than enjoying the music). On my decent but far from spectacular home system, Clockwork Angels sounds great! That's my point exactly. They are more consumed with finding cracks in the armor than actually enjoying it for all its great qualitites. I'm fed up with it! It's time to call it for what it is:   A systematic disruption of Modern RUSH!     While I admire your enthusiasm (I don't think I've ever seen anyone use exclamation points as vigorously as you do!!!!!!!!) you need to realize that some people try to be objective, even about their favorite bands. I love Rush, I have all their albums, dvds, blu-rays, etc, and have seen them more times than any other band. However, I'm allowed to be disappointed with a FACET of their new album. It doesn't make me any less of a fan than you.   I love the material, and think it is the most consistent effort they've done in years, which makes it even more disappointing to me that the sound quality of this album isn't up to par with some of the 80s output. This is a legitimate gripe, and it has the numbers and algorithms behind it to support it. It deserves to be better. With that being said, if you like the way it sounds and don't have any complaints, then great, I'm happy for you and slightly envious that you haven't been cursed with ears as sensitive as mine. But don't belittle me and others who want to objectively discuss something. You're entitled to your opinion that CA sounds great, and I'm entitled to mine.   If this is being a troll, then so be, I'll sit under my bridge and be a troll.   Oh, and to be honest, I think most people who are less than happy with the sonics of CA have said they love the material. So I don't know why some people are getting their thongs all up in a bunch. Clockwork Angels sounds spectacular and I would compare my hearing to yours any day of the week! I don't need any algorithms to know that this is RUSH finest effort since the early 80's!