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#81 clem

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 05:23 PM

QUOTE (Running Rebel @ Jan 12 2012, 05:05 PM)
So many of these anti-Neil comments always leave me a little sad.  

I love reading Neil's blog.  Having been a lifelong fan and having Rush been such an important part of the "soundtrack of my life" it's always nice to get a little personal insight and as is natural, compare and contrast with my own.  It's also simply nice to hear that life is going well for him on a personal basis after so much tradgedy.  It's reflective to read his thoughts on people and events.  It's inspirational to read about the upcoming music.

For those that say that Neil should keep his athiesm to himself I would like you to think about that and ask yourself, "do you also complain that Christians should keep it to themselves?"   Do you feel that Falwell should just "get over it" and that Tebow should shut it down, and that all our politicians have no right to express their beliefs, you know because "it's getting old"?   Are you as openly critical of Christians expressing their beliefs as you are of athiests? Or do you just expect that your priveledge allows you that? Telling Neil to "keep it to himself" is akin to telling homosexuals to keep in the closet or black people to stay on their own side of the tracks or God forbid, write about racism!.  

For Neil to come out after keeping it private the last 40 years I find incredibly brave, especially having the knowledge that it could hurt not only financially, but understanding that normal recourse of Christians and their propensity for personal attacks against anyone not sharing their beliefs.

I won't post examples, but the bigotry of many post in this thread would be unbelievable if it wasn't so unfortunately, common.

Did it really bother you to find that Neil is enjoying Christmas even though he is an athiest?  (OMG, he has an angel!  He must believe!)  It always surprises me to see people try to rationalize his beliefs as if he is really a closet Christian, or at least an OMG please at least be an agnostic!.

I can only ask, what specifically did Neil say that you took issue with?  Was it his reflection on his friend's life, (and death)?

Some days were dark
Some nights were bright
I wish that I could live it all again


I'm probably more in agreement with Neil on this and not sure I would want to re-live life, but like him, I appreciate the sentiment.

I found his tribute to Hitch heartfelt and moving, as Hitchens has touched many, many lives with his words. But did you take issue with Neil reflecing on his age (60th birthday) and passing of a friend (Freddie) or someone like Hitch that was obviously a huge influence on Neil having the courage to "come out" as he was to many of us?

Did Neil's reflection on, using one’s time, and facing life’s blessings and tragedies with grace and gratitude bother you?  I guess I am asking what he said that you found offensive?  Was it Hitch's quote?

I thought the Hitch was quote summed it up nicely and was surprised excited to see the homage,

QUOTE
The only position that leaves me with no cognitive dissonance is atheism. It is not a creed. Death is certain, replacing both the siren-song of Paradise and the dread of Hell. Life on this earth, with all its mystery and beauty and pain, is then to be lived far more intensely: we stumble and get up, we are sad, confident, insecure, feel loneliness and joy and love. There is nothing more; but I want nothing more.



And I thoguht Neil's words on the matter were inspirational.

QUOTE
If the highest gift art can offer is inspiration, then encouragement is not far behind. Mr. Hitchens has made me braver—for good or ill—about speaking my own mind. No one expects to change anyone’s beliefs, though as Hitchens also said: “What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.”


So as we are facing our own "Gate of the Year",  I suppose we all could reflect on Neil's ending words,

I said to the man who stood at the Gate of the Year, ‘Give me a light that I may tread safely into the unknown.’”

Seems to me you have to bring that light yourself.

Your post really is beautiful.  I don't think anyone really has a PROBLEM with Neil's beliefs.  If they would, why would they be Rush fans?  I mean, he's been singing about humanistic/agnostic beliefs as far back as "Fly By Night" ("live for yourself....there's no one else worth living for.....").

there comes a rare time, though, when many feel he crosses the line (referring to a "skygod" for example, I don't think sits well with many).  As someone said earlier, this is the kind of thing that divides Rush fans, and it's a bit sad.

I don't have a problem with Tebow kneeling in the end zone after a great play.  I WOULD have a problem if he started condemning everyone around him that didn't share his beliefs,though.

One of my favorite Rush lines is in the song "Faithless" (although I really really hate the song) where he says something like "I don't have faith in faith, but I believe in LOVE and that's faith enough for me".  That's the key word - Love.  Not to bring up Jon Anderson again, but he and buddy Chris Squire were onto something when they wrote  a song with a title "Love Conquers All".

I guess, whatever people's beliefs are, if they do it in love and not hate nor condescension, then  I'm happy with it.  Sadly, neither side of the religious fence seems to have this figured out yet.

I'll stop posting now.  I promise.

Peace
Clem

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#82 ColdFireYYZ

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 05:27 PM

QUOTE (Tony R @ Jan 12 2012, 05:04 PM)
@ColdFireYYZ

I'm not sure when he said "everyone else is wrong". Can you remind me?

Those were the wrong words to use. I guess I should have said that I get the impression that he thinks some of his opinions are facts. I don't blame him really. He went through so much in such a short time and I get where he's coming from.  

#83 wilb1972

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 05:29 PM

QUOTE
For those that say that Neil should keep his athiesm to himself I would like you to think about that and ask yourself, "do you also complain that Christians should keep it to themselves?"


Yes.

QUOTE
Are you as openly critical of Christians expressing their beliefs as you are of athiests?


Yep.

QUOTE
Telling Neil to "keep it to himself" is akin to telling homosexuals to keep in the closet


As long as they aren't writing songs telling me how wrong I am for not being one, then I am cool with homosexuals.

Look I have friends of all stripes, creeds, colors, lifestyles, etc. But the thing we share is the ability to respect each others' ways of life without feeling the need to constantly bring it up.

I love Neil's work with the band, his words, his music. But when you write from the position that you are somehow above others because they believe differently than you, then it gets a little annoying. I like BU2B and Freewill because they are more examinations of those belief systems. Whereas a lot of the Roll the Bones album assumes a certain viewpoint, that frankly leaves a lot of listeners on the outside.

But again, I love Rush and will continue to support them, because it is all thought-provoking. Maybe not always the grooviest, but there you go.

653.gif  

#84 thesweetscience

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 05:38 PM

QUOTE (Oracle @ Jan 12 2012, 12:33 AM)
Kind of tired of reading about his personal beliefs. Come on man, you're a drummer who's making an anticipated studio album for millions thousands of fans. We don't want to know about your thoughts on a Christian "skygod", we want to know what's going on with the album. Good read though.

Fixed it for you!!   biggrin.gif  

#85 Tom Sawyer

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 06:16 PM

QUOTE (Tony R @ Jan 12 2012, 03:06 PM)
Oh dear, here we go...

  popcorn.gif  

#86 rushgoober

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 06:45 PM

QUOTE (JohnnyBlaze @ Jan 12 2012, 06:43 AM)
QUOTE (liddybuck01 @ Jan 12 2012, 10:30 PM)
Neil is just doing what so many of us without religion try to do. get people to stop believing in man made story books and use some damn logic and reasoning. i, like Neil, go out of my way to make fun of Christianity. why? because it's ridiculous.


"Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion." - Dalai Lama

Taking that a step further, (even if you think it's ridiculous) why would you go out of your way to make fun of something that others firmly believe in? Sure, you can state your opinion but you're not doing anyone any favors by doing that.

Note: I am not a deeply religious person/bible thumper/etc. or a follower of any organized religion.

goodpost.gif

If there was a "great posting" icon, I would have posted that. yes.gif trink39.gif

Edited by rushgoober, 12 January 2012 - 06:46 PM.


#87 anchorman

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 06:52 PM

Hey ! Let's all kick his ass.  LOL, that just sounded funny.  I like my own jokes.  653.gif

By the way, Neil's lyrics have sucked for a while now.  Maybe that's why he's pissed there's no God to save himself from his pen. ** See Losing It from Signals/  Neil's becoming the writer in his song.

In all seriousness, I agree 100% with the opinion that his anti-religion references have lessened my appreciation for Rush.  Just as someone else mentioned about "Live" and the 180 turn they took.  When you beat a subject to death, you're most likely dry or obsessed.

I wish Neil would write poetry about his own personal beliefs and leave it out of the Rush stuff.  Geddy seems to be on board with him and Alex is along for the ride.

I remember someone asking Alex if he believed in God and he said something along the lines of.."Im not sure.  I think I used to, but I don't know.  No. I don't. Not a personal God.  Not a man in the sky."

Geddy thinks if there's a God, that God has some explaining to do and that he sucks for what's happening in the world today.  Nice.

I bet they give the existence of God all of 5 minutes after watching CNN or some news channel.  As if our problems today are so much worse than in thousands of previous years.





#88 rushgoober

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 06:56 PM

QUOTE (Knice @ Jan 12 2012, 10:52 AM)
Its amazing to me.  For a guy who really did have some hard blows, and yet found and created/blessed with a new family, baby, great career; he is still angry.  News flash Neil; everyone has tough times.  I know your inner-baby soul you mentioned on the last DVD was hurt; and I respect that, but bad stuff happens to good people all the time. 
Its interesting that he states he is "quietly resisting" when really it appears almost an agenda in the last few years and now albums.

Im disappointed because I grew up listening to these guys, and the lyrics were always as important as the music;  so I get some people saying, "well, then don't listen; or turn it off" but I am so excited to hear this next album; and I honestly feel its just going to bash and belittle my feelings on God and spirituality.  Not whining here, just kind of takes a little something out of the experience of a new Rush album. 

I have always felt for 30 years now, how incredibly intelligent/articulate Neil is; and yet it completely blows my mind how uneducated he is on Christianity.  He must be talking about the cook -a-dook fanatics, but in my Christian church that I try to attend weekly, its all about giving to those who don't, trying to think outside of ourselves, bringing my kids on Thanksgiving day to homeless shelters, forgiving those who screw us over and all around just trying to help me be a good man/husband/dad.  How he compares that to the MIDDLE EAST and terrorism on S&A, just baffled me. "middle east and the middle west" Yes, there are crazys but for the most part, I think people who are Christian are really just trying to make the world a better place.  It seems as if he was brought to a room and somebody tried to literally shove a bible down his throat and beat him or something.
Neil, please, we get it.  We respect your beliefs and your freedom to express;  but please stop making many of us feel "a little crazy" for believing in something that you are kind of belittling.
I will be bummed if the next album is another extension of his unresolved issues with Christians.
RUSH RULES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Also goodpost.gif

I don't mean that as a personal endorsement of every aspect of organized religion (even though I have a lot of respect for however people believe), but I especially love what you had to say here:

QUOTE
its all about giving to those who don't, trying to think outside of ourselves, bringing my kids on Thanksgiving day to homeless shelters, forgiving those who screw us over and all around just trying to help me be a good man/husband/dad.

I doubt anyone here could have much problem with THAT.  I love how you focus on the very positive aspects of your belief system, and those qualities I'm all for.

Besides that, you make a lot of other great points, spoken in a heartfelt way without belittling anyone.  That's a lesson many of us could benefit from, myself included.  GREAT first post and welcome to the board! trink39.gif

#89 eshine

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 07:08 PM

Oh for the love of sky-god, get over it people.

Neil Peart has every right to express his personal viewpoints in prose and song without filter or fear of insulting uber-sensitive Christians - or, frankly, middle aged fanboys who long for the good-old days when he validated their geekdom by writing about snowdogs, black holes and high school alienation.

His honesty is refreshing.  

#90 eshine

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 07:11 PM

QUOTE (anchorman @ Jan 12 2012, 06:52 PM)
Geddy thinks if there's a God, that God has some explaining to do and that he sucks for what's happening in the world today.  Nice.

Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

#91 presto123

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 07:26 PM

QUOTE (eshine @ Jan 12 2012, 07:08 PM)
Oh for the love of sky-god, get over it people.

Neil Peart has every right to express his personal viewpoints in prose and song without filter or fear of insulting uber-sensitive Christians - or, frankly, middle aged fanboys who long for the good-old days when he validated their geekdom by writing about snowdogs, black holes and high school alienation.

His honesty is refreshing.

  goodpost.gif  So much of Christianity(and any religion) IS absurd when you think about it and I'm glad he's writing about it being that it ends shaping the lives of so many people.(in a good or bad way) I know MANY people that go to Church every Sunday and some of them are still non compassionate, judgmental, and back stabbing. Do they learn anything while they are there? Forget it as soon as they walk out the church door? I think some people think all they have to do is show up every Sunday and punch their ticket to heaven. See what I mean by absurd. I judge people by their actions and the way they Really live their life not by their religious status.

#92 shail

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 07:26 PM

i love reading these blogs of his. the only thing i don't care for is the history lessons. no need for that stuff. i can look up all those facts on the internet. i don't give a flying shit about his beliefs. let him vent through his lyrics. there are songs you dig and some you don't. i pretty much like anything the band does.  

#93 The Mighty Dudad

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 07:34 PM

QUOTE (Running Rebel @ Jan 12 2012, 05:05 PM)
So many of these anti-Neil comments always leave me a little sad.  

I love reading Neil's blog.  Having been a lifelong fan and having Rush been such an important part of the "soundtrack of my life" it's always nice to get a little personal insight and as is natural, compare and contrast with my own.  It's also simply nice to hear that life is going well for him on a personal basis after so much tradgedy.  It's reflective to read his thoughts on people and events.  It's inspirational to read about the upcoming music.

For those that say that Neil should keep his athiesm to himself I would like you to think about that and ask yourself, "do you also complain that Christians should keep it to themselves?"   Do you feel that Falwell should just "get over it" and that Tebow should shut it down, and that all our politicians have no right to express their beliefs, you know because "it's getting old"?   Are you as openly critical of Christians expressing their beliefs as you are of athiests? Or do you just expect that your priveledge allows you that? Telling Neil to "keep it to himself" is akin to telling homosexuals to keep in the closet or black people to stay on their own side of the tracks or God forbid, write about racism!.  

For Neil to come out after keeping it private the last 40 years I find incredibly brave, especially having the knowledge that it could hurt not only financially, but understanding that normal recourse of Christians and their propensity for personal attacks against anyone not sharing their beliefs.

I won't post examples, but the bigotry of many post in this thread would be unbelievable if it wasn't so unfortunately, common.

Did it really bother you to find that Neil is enjoying Christmas even though he is an athiest?  (OMG, he has an angel!  He must believe!)  It always surprises me to see people try to rationalize his beliefs as if he is really a closet Christian, or at least an OMG please at least be an agnostic!.

I can only ask, what specifically did Neil say that you took issue with?  Was it his reflection on his friend's life, (and death)?

Some days were dark
Some nights were bright
I wish that I could live it all again


I'm probably more in agreement with Neil on this and not sure I would want to re-live life, but like him, I appreciate the sentiment.

I found his tribute to Hitch heartfelt and moving, as Hitchens has touched many, many lives with his words. But did you take issue with Neil reflecing on his age (60th birthday) and passing of a friend (Freddie) or someone like Hitch that was obviously a huge influence on Neil having the courage to "come out" as he was to many of us?

Did Neil's reflection on, using one’s time, and facing life’s blessings and tragedies with grace and gratitude bother you?  I guess I am asking what he said that you found offensive?  Was it Hitch's quote?

I thought the Hitch was quote summed it up nicely and was surprised excited to see the homage,

QUOTE
The only position that leaves me with no cognitive dissonance is atheism. It is not a creed. Death is certain, replacing both the siren-song of Paradise and the dread of Hell. Life on this earth, with all its mystery and beauty and pain, is then to be lived far more intensely: we stumble and get up, we are sad, confident, insecure, feel loneliness and joy and love. There is nothing more; but I want nothing more.



And I thoguht Neil's words on the matter were inspirational.

QUOTE
If the highest gift art can offer is inspiration, then encouragement is not far behind. Mr. Hitchens has made me braver—for good or ill—about speaking my own mind. No one expects to change anyone’s beliefs, though as Hitchens also said: “What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.”


So as we are facing our own "Gate of the Year",  I suppose we all could reflect on Neil's ending words,

I said to the man who stood at the Gate of the Year, ‘Give me a light that I may tread safely into the unknown.’”

Seems to me you have to bring that light yourself.

Best. Post. Ever.

Ditto times 1,000

#94 They Bow Defeated

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 07:35 PM

QUOTE (Running Rebel @ Jan 12 2012, 05:05 PM)
For those that say that Neil should keep his athiesm to himself I would like you to think about that and ask yourself, "do you also complain that Christians should keep it to themselves?"   Do you feel that Falwell should just "get over it" and that Tebow should shut it down, and that all our politicians have no right to express their beliefs, you know because "it's getting old"?   Are you as openly critical of Christians expressing their beliefs as you are of athiests? Or do you just expect that your priveledge allows you that? Telling Neil to "keep it to himself" is akin to telling homosexuals to keep in the closet or black people to stay on their own side of the tracks or God forbid, write about racism!. 


AMEN!!!  goodpost.gif

Whoops, I mean THANK YOU!!! goodpost.gif



#95 rushgoober

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 07:36 PM

QUOTE (eshine @ Jan 12 2012, 05:08 PM)
Oh for the love of sky-god, get over it people.

Neil Peart has every right to express his personal viewpoints in prose and song without filter or fear of insulting uber-sensitive Christians - or, frankly, middle aged fanboys who long for the good-old days when he validated their geekdom by writing about snowdogs, black holes and high school alienation.

His honesty is refreshing.

No one is saying he doesn't have the right to express his personal viewpoints in prose and song, but that doesn't mean that everyone has to like it or shut up about it if they don't.  We too have a right to express our personal viewpoints.  Give us the same courtesy that you give Neil as he freely expresses himself, even if you disagree with our views or don't like what we have to say.

I can't help but find it ironic that the people who get really bothered by people getting bothered are the ones who tend to really agree with Neil's views.  It's fine if you do, but please allow people who don't to feel the way they do and express it.  I could just as easily tell you to "get over it" if that bugs you, but it's not exactly the kindest or most compassionate thing to say.

Edited by rushgoober, 12 January 2012 - 07:38 PM.


#96 The Owl

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 07:55 PM

I would be amiss in saying that alot of Neal's views on religion do not coenside with mine own.  When Snake and Arrows came out I loved it, and felt a connection with it... but I can see where some might not like the lyrical direction he had taken.  (And by all evidence seems to continue taking).  

And while Neil's lyrics can be harsh towards organized religion as a structure and the influence it has on society (I.E Armor and Sword), He doesn't attack the religious (those who actually practice) in his lyrics... And I feel that moreso than reflecting on religion, his lyrics are more of a championing of humanism.  I cannot see how some can see "Faithless" as an anti-religious song, a more of a reflection on how a non-religious person can lead a fulfilling life... or at least that's how I see it. Most of his lyrics of late I feel inspiring as a humanist/secularist/non-religious....and I think that is his intent... I don't think he's delibertly trying to piss on those with beleifs as some would have you seem.  

#97 Captain Avatar

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 08:27 PM

QUOTE (rushgoober @ Jan 12 2012, 07:36 PM)
QUOTE (eshine @ Jan 12 2012, 05:08 PM)
Oh for the love of sky-god, get over it people.

Neil Peart has every right to express his personal viewpoints in prose and song without filter or fear of insulting uber-sensitive Christians - or, frankly, middle aged fanboys who long for the good-old days when he validated their geekdom by writing about snowdogs, black holes and high school alienation.

His honesty is refreshing.

No one is saying he doesn't have the right to express his personal viewpoints in prose and song, but that doesn't mean that everyone has to like it or shut up about it if they don't.  We too have a right to express our personal viewpoints.  Give us the same courtesy that you give Neil as he freely expresses himself, even if you disagree with our views or don't like what we have to say.

I can't help but find it ironic that the people who get really bothered by people getting bothered are the ones who tend to really agree with Neil's views.  It's fine if you do, but please allow people who don't to feel the way they do and express it.  I could just as easily tell you to "get over it" if that bugs you, but it's not exactly the kindest or most compassionate thing to say.

EXCELLENT post Rushgoober!  

This is exactly what I'm talking about.  Let's all agree that Neil has a right to believe what he wants to believe and say what he wants to say.  I certainly believe that, and I think that's been a universal sentiment here, shared by everyone, pro and con.  

What bothers me is that anytime a Christian speaks his mind, he's told to shut up and suck it up, while no one instructs Neil and others like him to do likewise.  Why is one standard applied to Rush fans who happen to be Christians ("Suck it up and quit being so sensitive all the time") and another applied to Neil ("Hey, he's being honest about his personal beliefs, and I find that refreshing").

My point is...who's being "uber sensitive" here?  If anyone is, it's Neil himself, and everyone who agrees with him.  They are the ones who can't take any kind of dissension from their belief systems.

One final point...a Christian like Tim Tebow speaks positively about his faith in and love for Jesus Christ.  He doesn't also constantly express his disdain for all atheists.  Along with praising paganism, Neil had to slip in the fact that Charlemagne killed thousands of pagans in the name of Christ.  That might be true, but I can't imagine the absolute storm of a backlash that would occur if Tebow, in an interview, equated atheism with, say, Stalin's massacres.  Atheists would be demanding his head on a platter.


  

  

#98 GeminiRising79

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 08:28 PM

The bottom line is that Neil's adoption of the hip, quasi-intellectual radical atheism mindset conforms very nicely with his general elitistic sentiment and disillusionment with God/religion.  He has therefore taken it upon himself, with lofty responsibility, to educate/reprogram his weak-minded, underachieving, "99%" fanbase... reminds me of this old post:

"It was my understanding that proceeds of the new book were going towards Neil's new school of  philosophical thought and neurological reprogramming, named the Peart Institute for Religious Transection (PIRT)- a sort of  Betty Ford clinic, if you will, for the religious-minded rush fan. "The institute will also strive to induce self-awareness among Rush fans and give  them a sense of what its like to experience rational human thoughts and feelings", explains Institute founder, Professor Neil Peart".

Edited by GeminiRising79, 12 January 2012 - 08:44 PM.


#99 eshine

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 08:33 PM

QUOTE (rushgoober @ Jan 12 2012, 07:36 PM)
I can't help but find it ironic that the people who get really bothered by people getting bothered are the ones who tend to really agree with Neil's views.

What I find ironic is how people of "faith" become so unhinged at the very notion of it being called into question.

If it can be cracked that easily, I would suggest finding a stronger foundation.

As for Neil  - he is not going to change direction to accomodate people who don't agree with him, or are "bothered" by the bluntness of his viewpoints. What Rush fan would want him to???

And yes - I do agree with him. Organized religion is a scourge filled with  liars and hypocrites.

Neil calls them out. Bravo.

The bottom line is - he remains hopeful and optimistic in spite of all the lunacy. THAT is what I take from his lyrics.

#100 eshine

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 08:38 PM

QUOTE (GeminiRising79 @ Jan 12 2012, 08:28 PM)
The bottom line is that Neil's adoption of the hip, quasi-intellectual radical atheism mindset conforms very nicely with his general elitistic sentiment and disillusionment with God/religion.  He has therefore taken it upon himself, with lofty responsibility, to educate/reprogram his weak-minded, underachieving, "99%" fanbase...

Actually - this says nothing of Neil and everything about your own insecurity regarding his opinions of faith and religion.

Edited by eshine, 12 January 2012 - 08:49 PM.





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