Vegetarians

[ReRushed]

QUOTE (GeddyRulz @ Apr 12 2012, 04:59 PM)

Still not true, after everything you've said.  Time for YOU to do YOUR research.  Meat causes your body's pH level to be highly acidic, and that's when disease and illness can take root.  Vegetables cause your body to be highly ALKALINE, and you simply can't have cancer, for example, in an alkaline body.  Vegetables, even better than drugs, can prevent, reverse, and even cure illnesses like diabetes and heart disease and yes, cancer. And the thing above about your body's pH level is just ONE reason vegetables are more healthy for you than meat.  Vegetables provide vitamins, minerals, nutrients, and phytochemicals you won't get in steak and pork chops.  They're nutrient rich; meat not so much.

This is where the anti-meat/animal product argument loses me. You simply can't have cancer? Really? Vegetables, even better than drugs, can prevent, reverse, and even cure illnesses like diabetes and heart disease and cancer? It's total pseudo-science. You can do this all with a proper diet that includes animal products.

[danielmclark]

If cancer is the unchecked growth and multiplication of cells, and cancer can't exist in an alkaline body, then logically, cells can't grow or multiply in an alkaline body. Right? That's the logical conclusion?

 

I'm pretty sure I don't want to have a body that cells can't grow in.

 

This "being a vegetarian cures cancer" argument needs a bit more explaining, I think, because I'm pretty sure I can find some vegetarians that have lots of different kinds of cancer.

[ReRushed]

QUOTE (danielmclark @ Apr 12 2012, 05:24 PM)

If cancer is the unchecked growth and multiplication of cells, and cancer can't exist in an alkaline body, then logically, cells can't grow or multiply in an alkaline body. Right? That's the logical conclusion? I'm pretty sure I don't want to have a body that cells can't grow in. This "being a vegetarian cures cancer" argument needs a bit more explaining, I think, because I'm pretty sure I can find some vegetarians that have lots of different kinds of cancer.

Here are some famous ones:

 

George Harrison

Linda McCartney

Bob Marley

Steve Jobs

[circumstantial tree]

I don't want to be living a long life. I eat what I eat and enjoy life. I think stress is what gives people cancer.

[ReflectedLight]

i'm a big supporter of the pork industry.

[Mara]

The whole "body alkalinity" thing is bunk anyway. If your blood is too acidic and your body can't self-correct (as it were - I'm simplifying) , it very likely means something is amiss with your kidneys and you probably won't be around long, no matter what you eat.

 

Link

 

Acid/Alkaline Theory of Disease Is Nonsense

Gabe Mirkin, M.D.

 

Have you seen advertisements for products such as coral calcium or alkaline water that are supposed to neutralize acid in your bloodstream? Taking calcium or drinking alkaline water does not affect blood acidity. Anyone who tells you that certain foods or supplements make your stomach or blood acidic does not understand nutrition.

 

You should not believe that it matters whether foods are acidic or alkaline, because no foods change the acidity of anything in your body except your urine. Your stomach is so acidic that no food can change its acidity. Citrus fruits, vinegar, and vitamins such as ascorbic acid or folic acid do not change the acidity of your stomach or your bloodstream. An entire bottle of calcium pills or antacids would not change the acidity of your stomach for more than a few minutes.

 

All foods that leave your stomach are acidic. Then they enter your intestines where secretions from your pancreas neutralize the stomach acids. So no matter what you eat, the food in stomach is acidic and the food in the intestines is alkaline.

 

Dietary modification cannot change the acidity of any part of your body except your urine. Your bloodstream and organs control acidity in a very narrow range. Anything that changed acidity in your body would make you very sick and could even kill you. Promoters of these products claim that cancer cells cannot live in an alkaline environment and that is true, but neither can any of the other cells in your body.

 

All chemical reactions in your body are started by chemicals called enzymes. For example, if you convert chemical A to chemical B and release energy, enzymes must start these reactions. All enzymes function in a very narrow range of acidity. (The degree of acidity or alkalinity is expressed as "pH."). If your blood changes its acidity or alkalinity for any reason, it is quickly changed back to the normal pH or these enzymes would not function and the necessary chemical reactions would not proceed in your body.

 

For example, when you hold your breath, carbon dioxide accumulates in your bloodstream very rapidly and your blood turns acidic, and you will become uncomfortable or even pass out. This forces you to start breathing again immediately, and the pH returns to normal. If your kidneys are damaged and cannot regulate the acidity of your bloodstream, chemical reactions stop, poisons accumulate in your bloodstream, and you can die.

 

Certain foods can leave end-products called ash that can make your urine acid or alkaline, but urine is the only body fluid that can have its acidity changed by food or supplements. ALKALINE-ASH FOODS include fresh fruit and raw vegetables. ACID-ASH FOODS include ALL ANIMAL PRODUCTS, whole grains, beans and other seeds. These foods can change the acidity of your urine, but that's irrelevant since your urine is contained in your bladder and does not affect the pH of any other part of your body.

 

When you take in more protein than your body needs, your body cannot store it, so the excess amino acids are converted to organic acids that would acidify your blood. But your blood never becomes acidic because as soon as the proteins are converted to organic acids, calcium leaves your bones to neutralize the acid and prevent any change in pH. Because of this, many scientists think that taking in too much protein may weaken bones to cause osteoporosis.

 

Cranberries have been shown to help prevent recurrent urinary tract infections, but not because of their acidity. They contain chemicals that prevent bacteria from sticking to urinary tract cells.

 

Taking calcium supplements or drinking alkaline water will not change the pH of your blood. If you hear someone say that your body is too acidic and you should use their product to make it more alkaline, you would be wise not to believe anything else the person tells you.

 

Dr. Mirkin, who practices medicine in Kensington, Maryland, is board-certified in four specialties: allergy and immunology; sports medicine; pediatrics; and pediatric immunology. He has served as a teaching fellow at Johns Hopkins Medical School, Assistant Professor at the University of Maryland, and Associate Clinical Professor in Pediatrics at the Georgetown University School of Medicine. He has written 16 books on sportsmedicine, weight control, and low-fat eating. His Web site offers broadcasts and reports on thousands of topics. He also offers a free weekly e-mail newsletter.

[GeddyRulz]

We've been bombarded with news of what's "bad" for us, some of the information contradictory, and I think it's made many people feel frozen. "Don't eat this, don't eat that, etc." Okay, but what should I eat?

 

Michael Pollan, author of several "food" books, including the highly praised "The Omnivore's Dilemma," came up with 70 or so simple "Food Rules," in a book titled exactly that. I recommend the book, but moreover I recommend following his rules.

 

If the 70 simple rules, some of which rhyme, are still too much to grasp, Pollan breaks it down to just seven words: "Eat food, not too much, mostly plants."

 

Good advice. Most people in the Western world don't eat food, they eat food-like substances. ("Eat food...")

 

Most people in the Western world eat too much, and have diabetes or an obesity problem. ("...not too much...")

 

And most people in the Western world eat less than one serving of fruit per day and NO servings of vegetables. ("...mostly plants.")

 

Follow Pollan's 7 words and you can make yourself feel a whole lot better.

Edited April 13, 2012 by GeddyRulz

[danielmclark]

QUOTE (GeddyRulz @ Apr 13 2012, 09:15 AM)

We've been bombarded with news of what's "bad" for us, some of the information contradictory, and I think it's made many people feel frozen. "Don't eat this, don't eat that, etc." Okay, but what should I eat? ...

So you won't be addressing the challenge to your "alkaline body" assertion then?

 

Also, that book you recommended, it says "mostly plants", so how does that jive with your previous statement that going vegetarian is the right way to go? Sounds like the author you recommended doesn't go that far.

 

Lastly, while I'm not saying the books he writes are worthless, Michael Pollen is not a doctor, scientist, botanist, nutritionist or any other "ist" that would make his writing credible. He's a journalist. I'll take the word of a doctor - like the one Mara quoted - over that of a journalist when it comes to nutrition.

[circumstantial tree]

Just shut up and eat, damnit!

[GeddyRulz]

QUOTE (danielmclark @ Apr 13 2012, 10:29 AM)

So you won't be addressing the challenge to your "alkaline body" assertion then?

I only know a little about it, but I understand it this way...

 

Radiation/Chemotherapy attacks cancer cells but also harms GOOD cells. In the end, I think a lot of "cancer deaths" can actually be attributed to the chemotherapy. (Think of the people in your own life who've "died of cancer." In many cases, isn't it strange that they were diagnosed, given chemo, and then died SO QUICKLY?? It's made me wonder if my loved ones would still maybe be alive if they hadn't been diagnosed and treated for the cancer!) Certain vegetables, if I understand this right, work differently than radiation/chemotherapy does; they attack only the bad cells, leave good cells alone, and therefore don't make you still SICKER. I'll say this much: if I'm diagnosed with cancer, I'm NOT getting chemotherapy. You've probably seen the commercial for the "Cancer Treatment Center." The woman's doctors non-chalantly told her she was going to die in a couple months. She then went to the Cancer Center, where the professionals told her she "didn't have an expiration date," gave her a mixed treatment which included NUTRITION, and her cancer went into remission.

 

The single doctor that Mara quoted, who has "debunked" the alkaline/acidity thing, is just one man. I'm not saying he's wrong or right, but try doing a Google search for this. I did, and what I found was that the first seven pages of search results all believed in the "body's pH" thing. (I finally stopped reading after seven straight pages worth of support for my argument.) If this is just a theory that's been de-bunked, where are all the other professionals who are de-bunking it?? It seems to me that if this was a controversial theory, like Global Warming for instance, with people that believed and people who did not, then at least SOME of the first 70 search results would've taken the "ANTI-" stance. But that's not the case. Maybe this doctor who Mara quoted knows something that nobody else does, but I'm going with the numbers.

 

QUOTE

Also, that book you recommended, it says "mostly plants", so how does that jive with your previous statement that going vegetarian is the right way to go? Sounds like the author you recommended doesn't go that far.

 

The more plant-based you go, the better. But it's hard getting people to go all the way. Look at Mara, who was Vegan for two years and then slid back into omnivorism, saying vegetarianism was "not for me" because she finds bacon cheeseburgers and other meats too irresistable. I don't blame her; I love meat, too. Pollan gives such people, like Mara and myself (for the time being), an out. It's like "Okay, if you can't totally resist the meat just yet, fine. But try to eat MOSTLY plants. At least get your five servings of vegetables per day." One doesn't have to completely change their diet overnight. Just start adding more vegetables; perhaps eventually the "good foods" you add will overcrowd the bad foods, and then you'll go 100% plant-based.

 

QUOTE

Lastly, while I'm not saying the books he writes are worthless, Michael Pollen is not a doctor, scientist, botanist, nutritionist or any other "ist" that would make his writing credible. He's a journalist. I'll take the word of a doctor - like the one Mara quoted - over that of a journalist when it comes to nutrition.

 

I don't know how old you are, but I'm increasingly finding as I age that I have less and less respect for the medical profession. Go and stick with the "doctors," if you still trust them implicitly. I don't anymore. I've had myself and my loved ones mis-diagnosed. I've had myself and my loved ones simply given pain pills and then sent home when the need for an operation was indicated. They're human, and they only know what they were taught in Med School.

 

Go ahead and ask several doctors and they'll tell you: they weren't taught ANYTHING about nutrition. They're taught "a pill for every ill"; whatever the patient presents, there's a drug they can prescribe... a drug which treats the SYMPTOMS, but not the ROOT CAUSE. All too frequently, the root cause is the patient's poor diet. The doctors often know it, but of course they'll still prescribe Prozac, not potatoes.

 

Nutritionists DO believe in the pH thing I mentioned. It's got the backing of nutritionists. What it doesn't have, though, is the backing of that one doctor in Kensington, Maryland who Mara quoted.

Edited April 13, 2012 by GeddyRulz

[GeddyRulz]

QUOTE (circumstantial tree @ Apr 13 2012, 10:45 AM)

Just shut up and eat, damnit!

Yes!

 

But EAT FOOD, NOT TOO MUCH, MOSTLY PLANTS.

 

 

 

[danielmclark]

QUOTE (GeddyRulz @ Apr 13 2012, 10:06 AM)

The single doctor that Mara quoted, who has "debunked" the alkaline/acidity thing, is just one man. I'm not saying he's wrong or right, but try doing a Google search for this. I did, and what I find was that the first seven pages of search results all believed in the "body's pH" thing. (I finally stopped reading after seven straight pages worth of support for my argument.) ... I don't know how old you are, but I'm increasingly finding as I age that I have less and less respect for the medical profession. Go and stick with the "doctors," if you still trust them implicitly. I don't anymore. I've had myself and my loved ones mis-diagnosed. I've had myself and my loved ones simply given pain pills and then sent home when the need for an operation was indicated. They're human, and they only know what they were taught in Med School. Go ahead and ask several doctors and they'll tell you: they weren't taught ANYTHING about nutrition. They're taught "a pill for every ill"; whatever the patient presents, there's a drug they can prescribe... a drug which treats the SYMPTOMS, but not the ROOT CAUSE. And all too frequently, the root cause is the patient's poor diet. ... Nutritionists DO believe in the pH thing I mentioned. It's got the backing of nutritionists. What it doesn't have, though, is the backing of that one doctor in Kensington, Maryland who Mara quoted.

There are three main points I'd like to address, and I've separated your quote in order to do that.

 

The first point is that trusting Dr. Google to give you the real information about this is a mistake. I've been an internet marketer for a long time, I can tell you just how easy it is to rank for terms. What did you search on? "body ph"? A tight-knit community of like-minded people can dominate the first 20 pages of Google for something like that; that's easy. It's a simple thing for a bunch of people who believe in this stuff to rank. The "single doctor" that Mara quoted, I'll get to that in a moment.

 

The second point is that I'm 38, and I'm married to an RN. Hospital based, ICU and CVICU (heart patients). She's seen a lot, and if you think that she and the doctors don't know anything about nutrition, you're fooling yourself (or someone is feeding you a line of bullcrap that you're trusting). Diet is one of the main things that the doctors and nurses focus on, in addition to the necessary surgeries and procedures. And it's a mainstream hospital.

 

I've been mis-diagnosed by a doctor once and by a chiropractor once. I've been given *terrible* advice by a nutritionist once as well. I've also had extremely positive experiences with doctors (gall bladder surgery), I see a chiropractor bi-weekly, and though I don't regularly talk to nutritionists, I know two that I trust. Neither says that going vegetarian is a smart thing to do because it's out of balance with our status as omnivores.

 

The third point is the problem you have with the doctor that Mara quoted. You seem to think that he's the one lone crackpot that doesn't go along with this. Would it have been better if Mara had posted ten or twenty pages' worth of quotes from a couple dozen sources? You've only posted one resource yourself so far, should we automatically dismiss your entire argument just because of that?

 

You kept using one word in particular: believe. Believe, believes, belief, and the variants... you used that word more than a few times. I'm a man of science. When a scientist publishes a peer-reviewed paper that has scientifically reproducible findings, I tend to accept that. When a doctor or scientist says that there's no such thing as your "alkaline body" because of X, Y and Z reasons... I accept that. I accept it because the alternative is "I believe that body pH is a thing because those other people also believe it's a thing, even though nobody seems to have any scientific proof of it." It's rather like religion in that regard. You can believe in god all you want, but that doesn't make it true.

 

You put down the idea of doctors only knowing what they are taught in school - but where do the nutritionists that you trust get their information? Surely they're not making it up as they go along? But where are they getting the information that they're being taught? Is it the result of scientific study? More often than not, it's the result of "ancient Chinese secrets", to paraphrase a funny television commercial.

 

...

 

Now, the last thing, the bottom line of all this... I agree that there is an obesity problem. I myself am overweight by about 40 pounds (or more, depending on who you ask). My condition isn't caused by eating meat 4 or 5 times a week, it's because I spent the past 20 years eating fast food, not exercising, and smoking. I know what my problems are, and turning into a vegetarian ain't gonna solve them.

[GeddyRulz]

Perhaps I overstated myself when I expressed dis-satisfaction with the medical profession. I also have some trusted specialists that I see, I also had a great experience when I had my gall bladder removed, etc. Doctors are alright. But they're human, and I still maintain that they don't get taught much about nutrition. Remember, if it helps, that they give you coffee and Jell-O as recovery foods. (And don't you think our DIETS, yours and mine, had something to do with our mutual gall bladder problems? Was that addressed to you by the doctors, because it wasn't to me.)

 

My PCP, a dear man who's married to a former classmate of mine, gave me antibiotic pills for a skin infection; they were ineffectual. My hairdresser friend, of all people, recommended an over-the-counter antiobiotic cream; that did the trick. My doctor, out-doctored by a hairdresser!

 

Twice I went to my local hospital's ER with symptoms of a gall bladder attack; twice I was given pain medication until it didn't hurt anymore and sent home. A week after the second attack, while ON VACATION IN ANOTHER STATE, the symptoms came back and only THEN did doctors remove the offending gall bladder. (If I was still dealing with my hometown hospital, would I have been sent home a third time rather than get the surgery?) The same thing happened to that hairdresser's son: twice he went to the hospital with appendix pain, and twice he was given pain killers and sent home rather than remove the offending organ. What the f**k??!!

 

Anyway. I'm just saying. They're human. They screw up. They don't know everything, and they don't necessarily know anything about nutrition.

 

You also seem to think that I reject SCIENCE and SCIENTIFIC FACTS and HARD DATA, but that's not true. I don't reject those things at all.

 

 

 

I'm not interested in going back-and-forth with a lot of arguing over details, so let's get to the crux. Forget my assertion about the body's pH levels, etc. Just answer me this:

 

When you said an all-meat diet is just as healthy as an all-plant diet, did you really believe the shit you were shoveling??? I mean, come on! Like a child, I've avoided vegetables my whole life ("They're yucky!"), I ate a big piece of meat with every meal, ate fast food a lot, was 30-40 pounds overweight, felt like shit, didn't exercise, and smoked - in other words, I was like you. But in all that time, I never kidded myself. I knew eating all vegetables was healthier than what I was doing. You, you want to defend a meat-heavy diet as being "just as healthy" as all vegetables! Are you crazy??? You really believe that???

 

Look, enjoying meat is one thing. I'm with you. Tastes awesome, doesn't it? But taking that love of steak to the extreme of DEFENDING IT as "just as healthy as eating all vegetables," that's pure foolishness. I want to give you the benefit of the doubt: tell me you're not that stupid; that you don't REALLY believe that. Vegetables are infinitely better for you than animal meat. I knew it when I ate lots of meat and no vegetables, and I still know it now.

 

 

 

[ReRushed]

The whole anti-meat/anti-animal products/pro-vegetarianism/pro-vegan argument is up against the fast food/saturated fat/processed food diet. Once more people start eating a sensible balanced diet which includes all food sources the argument will wither away.

 

There is distrust and disappointment in our civilization and its institutions which results in beliefs that are very extreme, just look at all the conspiracy theories and new age beliefs that hang around. I also blame google and wikipedia which are not balanced arenas of thought.

[ReRushed]

QUOTE (GeddyRulz @ Apr 13 2012, 02:10 PM)

When you said an all-meat diet is just as healthy as an all-plant diet, did you really believe the shit you were shoveling??? I mean, come on! Like a child, I've avoided vegetables my whole life ("They're yucky!"), I ate a big piece of meat with every meal, ate fast food a lot, was 30-40 pounds overweight, felt like shit, didn't exercise, and smoked - in other words, I was like you. But in all that time, I never kidded myself. I knew eating all vegetables was healthier than what I was doing. You, you want to defend a meat-heavy diet as being "just as healthy" as all vegetables! Are you crazy??? You really believe that??? Look, enjoying meat is one thing. I'm with you. Tastes awesome, doesn't it? But taking that love of steak to the extreme of DEFENDING IT as "just as healthy as eating all vegetables," that's pure foolishness. I want to give you the benefit of the doubt: tell me you're not that stupid; that you don't REALLY believe that. Vegetables are infinitely better for you than animal meat. I knew it when I ate lots of meat and no vegetables, and I still know it now.

All-meat diet? Who's arguing for that? People make poor choices, obviously poor choices, and regret it, so they swing to an extreme to make up for it. Eating meat, the right way and in the correct proportions, has many healthful benefits. Just don't eat bacon and eggs for breakfast, McDonald's for lunch and pizza for dinner, washing it all down with Coke.

[danielmclark]

That's a lot of stuff to quote, so I'll just... not

 

The gall bladder thing, you're right, the way we ate directly led to our gall bladder problems. But it wasn't because we ate meat, or else everyone would be having gall bladder problems. It was because we ate bad food for long enough that it damaged the organ. Weight loss helps because it puts less stress on the gall bladder, and my doctor actually refused to operate until I tried a change in diet. When I first went to him, I had had two attacks. The first was mild, the second moderate. He told me that if I changed my diet and lost 20 pounds up front, I might not need surgery right away - or at all.

 

I didn't lose the weight and I didn't change my diet in a meaningful way, so I ended up in the hospital after a severe attack and they removed it.

 

Now, is my doctor who went with diet change first the more common type of doctor? Or is your doctor who didn't go that way the more common type of doctor? I honestly don't know. But I can't believe that mine was one in a million. He has the same education and experience as other doctors in his specialty, so he can't be the only one.

 

Okay... did I really believe that an all meat diet is just as healthy as an all vegetable diet? Yes! But not in the way you think.

 

An all meat diet is as healthy as an all vegetable diet: it's not. They're not. They are equally unhealthy. All meat, all the time will make you sick from malnutrition, there's no question about that. But an all vegetable diet will do the exact same thing unless you micromanage it - and even then, different bodies have very different reactions to that lifestyle. Like I said in that other thread, beer, twinkies, donuts and Snickers are all perfectly fine for a vegetarian.

 

I mean, what are people supposed to do? Only eat vegetables and drink only water? Go totally vegan? Because cutting out meat doesn't solve anything if you still refuse to exercise, still refuse to give up candy and junk food, and still eat mammoth portions. Do a Google search for "overweight vegetarian", there are several accounts from people right there in the top ten results, people wondering why they are gaining weight after going vegetarian.

[danielmclark]

QUOTE (ReRushed @ Apr 13 2012, 12:13 PM)

The whole anti-meat/anti-animal products/pro-vegetarianism/pro-vegan argument is up against the fast food/saturated fat/processed food diet. Once more people start eating a sensible balanced diet which includes all food sources the argument will wither away. There is distrust and disappointment in our civilization and its institutions which results in beliefs that are very extreme, just look at all the conspiracy theories and new age beliefs that hang around. I also blame google and wikipedia which are not balanced arenas of thought.

I'm largely alone in this... but I honestly believe fast food restaurants and many types of processed foods should be made illegal. They should absolutely be banned. I'd support that law.

 

I know, I know... personal responsibility and all that. But this has gone way too far, and the food industry on the whole has made it so that lower and middle-class people can't afford fresh food anymore.

 

It'll never happen, but I'd totally support it if it did.

[ReflectedLight]

QUOTE (danielmclark @ Apr 13 2012, 01:34 PM)

QUOTE (ReRushed @ Apr 13 2012, 12:13 PM) The whole anti-meat/anti-animal products/pro-vegetarianism/pro-vegan argument is up against the fast food/saturated fat/processed food diet. Once more people start eating a sensible balanced diet which includes all food sources the argument will wither away. There is distrust and disappointment in our civilization and its institutions which results in beliefs that are very extreme, just look at all the conspiracy theories and new age beliefs that hang around. I also blame google and wikipedia which are not balanced arenas of thought. I'm largely alone in this... but I honestly believe fast food restaurants and many types of processed foods should be made illegal. They should absolutely be banned. I'd support that law.   I know, I know... personal responsibility and all that. But this has gone way too far, and the food industry on the whole has made it so that lower and middle-class people can't afford fresh food anymore.   It'll never happen, but I'd totally support it if it did. taco bell once every couple of months isn't going to kill you.

[danielmclark]

QUOTE (ReflectedLight @ Apr 13 2012, 12:47 PM)

QUOTE (danielmclark @ Apr 13 2012, 01:34 PM) QUOTE (ReRushed @ Apr 13 2012, 12:13 PM) The whole anti-meat/anti-animal products/pro-vegetarianism/pro-vegan argument is up against the fast food/saturated fat/processed food diet. Once more people start eating a sensible balanced diet which includes all food sources the argument will wither away. There is distrust and disappointment in our civilization and its institutions which results in beliefs that are very extreme, just look at all the conspiracy theories and new age beliefs that hang around. I also blame google and wikipedia which are not balanced arenas of thought. I'm largely alone in this... but I honestly believe fast food restaurants and many types of processed foods should be made illegal. They should absolutely be banned. I'd support that law.   I know, I know... personal responsibility and all that. But this has gone way too far, and the food industry on the whole has made it so that lower and middle-class people can't afford fresh food anymore.   It'll never happen, but I'd totally support it if it did. taco bell once every couple of months isn't going to kill you. Oh, I know! Everything in moderation, I'm a firm believer in that principle on an individual basis... but as a society? I think we've shown that "every couple of months" isn't realistic for something like 2/3rds of everyone here.

[GeddyRulz]

QUOTE (danielmclark @ Apr 13 2012, 01:28 PM)

All meat, all the time will make you sick from malnutrition, there's no question about that. But an all vegetable diet will do the exact same thing unless you micromanage it - and even then, different bodies have very different reactions to that lifestyle. Like I said in that other thread, beer, twinkies, donuts and Snickers are all perfectly fine for a vegetarian. I mean, what are people supposed to do? Only eat vegetables and drink only water? Go totally vegan? Because cutting out meat doesn't solve anything if you still refuse to exercise, still refuse to give up candy and junk food, and still eat mammoth portions. Do a Google search for "overweight vegetarian", there are several accounts from people right there in the top ten results, people wondering why they are gaining weight after going vegetarian.

I think you're splitting hairs.

 

I don't know any vegetarians who also eat Snickers, donuts, and Twinkies, but yes, such people would be UN-healthy. Cutting those things out of your otherwise all-Vegan diet isn't "micro-managing" your vegetarianism; it's just being sensible. If there are Vegans who eat that shit and are therefore overweight and unhealthy, well, they're doing the Vegan thing wrong. I maintain that a vegetarian who isn't an idiot is healthier than an omnivore, okay?

 

 

 

 

[GeddyRulz]

QUOTE (danielmclark @ Apr 13 2012, 01:54 PM)

QUOTE (ReflectedLight @ Apr 13 2012, 12:47 PM) QUOTE (danielmclark @ Apr 13 2012, 01:34 PM) QUOTE (ReRushed @ Apr 13 2012, 12:13 PM) The whole anti-meat/anti-animal products/pro-vegetarianism/pro-vegan argument is up against the fast food/saturated fat/processed food diet. Once more people start eating a sensible balanced diet which includes all food sources the argument will wither away. There is distrust and disappointment in our civilization and its institutions which results in beliefs that are very extreme, just look at all the conspiracy theories and new age beliefs that hang around. I also blame google and wikipedia which are not balanced arenas of thought. I'm largely alone in this... but I honestly believe fast food restaurants and many types of processed foods should be made illegal. They should absolutely be banned. I'd support that law.   I know, I know... personal responsibility and all that. But this has gone way too far, and the food industry on the whole has made it so that lower and middle-class people can't afford fresh food anymore.   It'll never happen, but I'd totally support it if it did. taco bell once every couple of months isn't going to kill you. Oh, I know! Everything in moderation, I'm a firm believer in that principle on an individual basis... but as a society? I think we've shown that "every couple of months" isn't realistic for something like 2/3rds of everyone here. We're getting closer to common ground, you and me.   I once thought there SHOULDN'T be legislation against that "food," but now I'm not so sure. The things I know about that stuff, I can't unlearn. It's poison. Every bit of it.   The problem is people don't KNOW that it's poison. And we can't educate everyone, explain to the entire population all the science behind trans fats, MSG, growth hormones, high fructose corn syrup, etc., so we may just have to forcibly keep it out of the people's hands through legislation.

[ReRushed]

QUOTE (GeddyRulz @ Apr 13 2012, 03:10 PM)

QUOTE (danielmclark @ Apr 13 2012, 01:54 PM) QUOTE (ReflectedLight @ Apr 13 2012, 12:47 PM) QUOTE (danielmclark @ Apr 13 2012, 01:34 PM) QUOTE (ReRushed @ Apr 13 2012, 12:13 PM) The whole anti-meat/anti-animal products/pro-vegetarianism/pro-vegan argument is up against the fast food/saturated fat/processed food diet. Once more people start eating a sensible balanced diet which includes all food sources the argument will wither away. There is distrust and disappointment in our civilization and its institutions which results in beliefs that are very extreme, just look at all the conspiracy theories and new age beliefs that hang around. I also blame google and wikipedia which are not balanced arenas of thought. I'm largely alone in this... but I honestly believe fast food restaurants and many types of processed foods should be made illegal. They should absolutely be banned. I'd support that law.   I know, I know... personal responsibility and all that. But this has gone way too far, and the food industry on the whole has made it so that lower and middle-class people can't afford fresh food anymore.   It'll never happen, but I'd totally support it if it did. taco bell once every couple of months isn't going to kill you. Oh, I know! Everything in moderation, I'm a firm believer in that principle on an individual basis... but as a society? I think we've shown that "every couple of months" isn't realistic for something like 2/3rds of everyone here. We're getting closer to common ground, you and me.   I once thought there SHOULDN'T be legislation against that "food," but now I'm not so sure. The things I know about that stuff, I can't unlearn. It's poison. Every bit of it.   The problem is people don't KNOW that it's poison. And we can't educate everyone, explain to the entire population all the science behind trans fats, MSG, growth hormones, high fructose corn syrup, etc., so we may just have to forcibly keep it out of the people's hands through legislation. It's a slippery slop, my friend. Do you really want to go down that road?

[danielmclark]

QUOTE (GeddyRulz @ Apr 13 2012, 01:01 PM)

QUOTE (danielmclark @ Apr 13 2012, 01:28 PM) All meat, all the time will make you sick from malnutrition, there's no question about that. But an all vegetable diet will do the exact same thing unless you micromanage it - and even then, different bodies have very different reactions to that lifestyle. Like I said in that other thread, beer, twinkies, donuts and Snickers are all perfectly fine for a vegetarian. I mean, what are people supposed to do? Only eat vegetables and drink only water? Go totally vegan? Because cutting out meat doesn't solve anything if you still refuse to exercise, still refuse to give up candy and junk food, and still eat mammoth portions. Do a Google search for "overweight vegetarian", there are several accounts from people right there in the top ten results, people wondering why they are gaining weight after going vegetarian. I think you're splitting hairs.   I don't know any vegetarians who also eat Snickers, donuts, and Twinkies, but yes, such people would be UN-healthy. Cutting those things out of your otherwise all-Vegan diet isn't "micro-managing" your vegetarianism; it's just being sensible. If there are Vegans who eat that shit and are therefore overweight and unhealthy, well, they're doing the Vegan thing wrong. I maintain that a vegetarian who isn't an idiot is healthier than an omnivore, okay? And I maintain that there is nothing inherently unhealthy about eating meat once you eliminate all those other junk options - which is the point I was trying to bring you around to.   All other things being equal, cutting out meat completely from a diet is not any healthier for a human animal. We are omnivores for a reason.

[danielmclark]

QUOTE (ReRushed @ Apr 13 2012, 01:13 PM)

QUOTE (GeddyRulz @ Apr 13 2012, 03:10 PM) QUOTE (danielmclark @ Apr 13 2012, 01:54 PM) QUOTE (ReflectedLight @ Apr 13 2012, 12:47 PM) QUOTE (danielmclark @ Apr 13 2012, 01:34 PM) QUOTE (ReRushed @ Apr 13 2012, 12:13 PM) The whole anti-meat/anti-animal products/pro-vegetarianism/pro-vegan argument is up against the fast food/saturated fat/processed food diet. Once more people start eating a sensible balanced diet which includes all food sources the argument will wither away. There is distrust and disappointment in our civilization and its institutions which results in beliefs that are very extreme, just look at all the conspiracy theories and new age beliefs that hang around. I also blame google and wikipedia which are not balanced arenas of thought. I'm largely alone in this... but I honestly believe fast food restaurants and many types of processed foods should be made illegal. They should absolutely be banned. I'd support that law.   I know, I know... personal responsibility and all that. But this has gone way too far, and the food industry on the whole has made it so that lower and middle-class people can't afford fresh food anymore.   It'll never happen, but I'd totally support it if it did. taco bell once every couple of months isn't going to kill you. Oh, I know! Everything in moderation, I'm a firm believer in that principle on an individual basis... but as a society? I think we've shown that "every couple of months" isn't realistic for something like 2/3rds of everyone here. We're getting closer to common ground, you and me.   I once thought there SHOULDN'T be legislation against that "food," but now I'm not so sure. The things I know about that stuff, I can't unlearn. It's poison. Every bit of it.   The problem is people don't KNOW that it's poison. And we can't educate everyone, explain to the entire population all the science behind trans fats, MSG, growth hormones, high fructose corn syrup, etc., so we may just have to forcibly keep it out of the people's hands through legislation. It's a slippery slop, my friend. Do you really want to go down that road? I would. In a heartbeat. For the same reason that we make heroin, LSD and cocaine illegal - it's bad for you to the point that there are virtually no redeeming qualities to it at all. For the same reason we make rat poison illegal for minors to buy (um... I'm guessing. That might not be the best example. But there are plenty of things people aren't allowed to buy because it's poisonous. )

[GeddyRulz]

QUOTE (ReRushed @ Apr 13 2012, 02:13 PM)

QUOTE (GeddyRulz @ Apr 13 2012, 03:10 PM) QUOTE (danielmclark @ Apr 13 2012, 01:54 PM) QUOTE (ReflectedLight @ Apr 13 2012, 12:47 PM) QUOTE (danielmclark @ Apr 13 2012, 01:34 PM) QUOTE (ReRushed @ Apr 13 2012, 12:13 PM) The whole anti-meat/anti-animal products/pro-vegetarianism/pro-vegan argument is up against the fast food/saturated fat/processed food diet. Once more people start eating a sensible balanced diet which includes all food sources the argument will wither away. There is distrust and disappointment in our civilization and its institutions which results in beliefs that are very extreme, just look at all the conspiracy theories and new age beliefs that hang around. I also blame google and wikipedia which are not balanced arenas of thought. I'm largely alone in this... but I honestly believe fast food restaurants and many types of processed foods should be made illegal. They should absolutely be banned. I'd support that law.   I know, I know... personal responsibility and all that. But this has gone way too far, and the food industry on the whole has made it so that lower and middle-class people can't afford fresh food anymore.   It'll never happen, but I'd totally support it if it did. taco bell once every couple of months isn't going to kill you. Oh, I know! Everything in moderation, I'm a firm believer in that principle on an individual basis... but as a society? I think we've shown that "every couple of months" isn't realistic for something like 2/3rds of everyone here. We're getting closer to common ground, you and me.   I once thought there SHOULDN'T be legislation against that "food," but now I'm not so sure. The things I know about that stuff, I can't unlearn. It's poison. Every bit of it.   The problem is people don't KNOW that it's poison. And we can't educate everyone, explain to the entire population all the science behind trans fats, MSG, growth hormones, high fructose corn syrup, etc., so we may just have to forcibly keep it out of the people's hands through legislation. It's a slippery slop, my friend. Do you really want to go down that road? I don't know as I do. Until now, I've taken the decidedly laissez faire/free market attitude: if someone's selling it and someone else is willing to buy it, it's not my place or the government's to stop them.   I still kind of feel that way, but damn it, people are making themselves sick and killing themselves eating this stuff they know nothing about. It's very sad. Our "food" is getting worse, diabetes is way up, obesity is way up, heart disease, cancer... and it'll only keep going until people become educated or have it taken away from them.

Edited April 13, 2012 by GeddyRulz