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1977 Gibson Les Paul Standard question


Perchance to Dream
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A buddy of mine is selling his Les Paul and I am interested in purchasing it. I have no idea how much it's worth (knuckle dragging bass player here) and would like some opinions on how much you think it's worth.

 

I saw a picture of it today, but haven't actually seen it in person.

 

From his description: Cherry burst finish. He went on about how '77 was the last year that Gibson made that finish with actual berry juice stain and not paint. The fretboard is rosewood and has mother of pearl inlays. It's a little worn on the back as it was his gigging axe and his belt buckle wore into the back of the guitar. It could use some cleaning as well as it hasn't seen the light of day in several years. Other than that, it's in pretty good shape.

 

What do you think a fair price would be? I know that the info above is limited but I'll try to answer any questions as best as I can.

 

Thanks!

 

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Gruhn Guitars will know what it's worth. My dad has a '78 Gold Top Deluxe. I have seen those recently go for about $2000 - $4000, depending upon finish and condition. 70's Les Pauls have particularly heavier mahogany because of where they were getting the wood. Allegedly there is a higher mineral count as well as being particularly dense. Gruhn is considered the vintage guitar guru. He may even have an online blue book.
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QUOTE (Perchance to Dream @ Dec 22 2011, 07:55 PM)
A buddy of mine is selling his Les Paul and I am interested in purchasing it. I have no idea how much it's worth (knuckle dragging bass player here) and would like some opinions on how much you think it's worth.

I saw a picture of it today, but haven't actually seen it in person.

From his description: Cherry burst finish. He went on about how '77 was the last year that Gibson made that finish with actual berry juice stain and not paint. The fretboard is rosewood and has mother of pearl inlays. It's a little worn on the back as it was his gigging axe and his belt buckle wore into the back of the guitar. It could use some cleaning as well as it hasn't seen the light of day in several years. Other than that, it's in pretty good shape.

What do you think a fair price would be? I know that the info above is limited but I'll try to answer any questions as best as I can.

Thanks!

trink38.gif

Offer him a million dollars he'd be crazy not to take it!!!!

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I went over to his house to check it out. The body looks really good except for the wear on the back. The neck is in great condition with absolutely no cracks. One of the humbuckers is floating around and needs a new spring. The knob on the killswitch is missing and a screw is missing from the pick guard. Minor stuff, really. I'm kicking myself because I forgot to write down the f***ing serial number! angry.gif

 

I plugged it into a Marshall stack and it sounds really, really good. His asking price is $600. This is a no-brainer, right?

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QUOTE (CygnusX-1Bk2 @ Dec 22 2011, 05:55 PM)
Gruhn Guitars will know what it's worth. My dad has a '78 Gold Top Deluxe. I have seen those recently go for about $2000 - $4000, depending upon finish and condition. 70's Les Pauls have particularly heavier mahogany because of where they were getting the wood. Allegedly there is a higher mineral count as well as being particularly dense. Gruhn is considered the vintage guitar guru. He may even have an online blue book.

Will do, thanks. I'll also check e-bay as per AW's suggestion. Him asking $600 is odd. He knows his stuff, so maybe there's something he's not telling me. I'm beginning to wonder if it's hot.

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Take a phone picture and send it to me. Look at the headstock and the neck joint. The serial number will be on the back of the headstock stamped in the wood and should be an 8 or 9 digit number. More than likely 8. Year can be determined by the 1st (decade) and 5th number (year, in the 8 digit code). The 2nd, 3rd & 4th number are the day of the year (001 being January first, 365 December 31) and the last three numbers are the number of guitars stamped on that day as well as indicate where it was made (Kalamazoo more than likely). 000-499 I believe is Kalamazoo and 500+ are Nashville. Could be the other way around.
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QUOTE (CygnusX-1Bk2 @ Dec 22 2011, 07:55 PM)
Take a phone picture and send it to me. Look at the headstock and the neck joint. The serial number will be on the back of the headstock stamped in the wood and should be an 8 or 9 digit number. More than likely 8. Year can be determined by the 1st (decade) and 5th number (year, in the 8 digit code). The 2nd, 3rd & 4th number are the day of the year (001 being January first, 365 December 31) and the last three numbers are the number of guitars stamped on that day as well as indicate where it was made (Kalamazoo more than likely). 000-499 I believe is Kalamazoo and 500+ are Nashville. Could be the other way around.

I recall him mentioning Tennessee, so Nashville is a good possibility. I'm still irritated with myself for not writing down the serial number. I'll take a pic and send it to you.

 

I'm hoping this is the real deal. It looks exactly like Ace's triple humbucker Les Paul. blush4.gif

 

 

 

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Is the "Gibson" on the headstock inlaid? The only fake Gibson I've come across was printed and poorly at that. A friend of mine found it in NY and bought it because it was really cheap. Like $150.

 

Les Paul himself played a guitar made for him by an independent guy who made the Gibson logo dead on.

 

You are probably safe because you know the guy. That's not saying it isn't hot. It may be. wink.gif

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I went ahead and pulled the trigger. The Les Paul is now officially mine! smile.gif

 

Couple of things, though. The tuning machines are not original. I'll buy some from a shop that sell Gibson parts and install them in the future.

 

As far as I can tell, this is NOT a 1977 model. I believe that it's a 1979.

 

I'll take a couple of pics and post them in a few.

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Jeebus, those pics are huge. Okay.....a couple more.

 

The full monty:

 

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa122/Perchance/100_2229-1.jpg

 

Another minor issue is there are two extra holes that were drilled into the body where the end pin is located. Not a biggie. I can fill those in.

 

Close up. The humbuckers look like shit, but they work. Thinking about replacing them. Suggestions would be appreciated!

 

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa122/Perchance/100_2230.jpg

 

 

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What you have there is your Ace Frehley style model. Dude!

 

According to the Gibson serialization this guitar was made on Sept 28, 1979 in Nashville and was the 103rd guitar stamped that day.

 

I would venture a guess the middle pickup was added later to be like Ace. The big question is how it is wired. Logically one would think that there would be 3 volume and a master tone or two pickups are shared through one set of volume and tone. Unfortunately the middle pickup may affect the perceived value of the piece but for a player it looks like a winner! Especially for that price. I am jealous.

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Also the three piece top was unique to this era. Some collectors find it appealing and some do not. As an unabashed Les Paul fan it makes no difference to me personally.

 

I'd like to see the neck and sides too. I think they had stopped the "sandwich" bodies by 79 but am not sure. I am thinking though because of the 3 piece body this guitar might be a sandwich body.

 

Also it seems like there may be maple on the headstock. Generally Les Paul necks are mahogany but in the 70's occasionally they could be maple. Sometimes the necks have a similar finish to the top rather than the back. For instance some Gold Tops have gold necks, some have natural mahogany depending on when they were made. The neck on mine is the same color as the back with no burst.

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As for pickups, if you want to go full Ace Frehley get DiMarzio Super Distortions for all 3. Kinda looks like that's what's there already. Check this out, it's "new": Ace Frehley "Budokan" Les Paul Custom. This is a Custom though, not a standard so it's a double bound body, bound neck and headstock, block inlay from the first fret with the diamond headstock pattern. It is also a sandwich model (two piece mahogany sandwich back with a visible seam):

http://images.gibson.com.s3.amazonaws.com/Products/Electric-Guitars/Les-Paul/Gibson-Custom/Ace-Frehley-Budokan-1974-Les-Paul-Custom/Gallery-Images/HB429C-Glam-Shot.jpg

I think he had 3 pickups on a couple others, one was a Standard.

 

Personally I really like the 57 Classics that Gibson puts on their top models. I intend to put those on mine eventually to replace the BurstBuckers that are on it now. They are very close but the 57s have that classic sound. The Lifesons come with a 498T (bridge) and a 496R (neck) which are on some higher models and custom shop guitars.

 

Pete Townshend played some 3 pickup Les Pauls in the 70s. He had some that were Deluxes (mini humbuckers) that he had DiMarzios put in the middle position. He also added 2 toggle switches above the knobs. This is referred to as the Pete Townshend Mod (only fitting since PT had been a Mod tongue.gif). But I digress. That won't work on this guitar. The number 1 indicates the fret # for the capo if used. His guitars were intonated accordingly.

 

http://thegibsonshop.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/guitar_lg/PT5.jpg

 

I think your best bet would be to get a DiMarzio for the bridge and a 57 for the neck. I think they have cream bobbins if you want to go coverless to match the DiMarzio. As for the middle pickup I don't know. Part of me thinks it should just be cosmetic because to use it effectively would require some serious rewiring and switching. Ace only ever uses the bridge pickup. The middle pickup usually isn't wired in his and in a couple the neck pickup was for the smoking guitar trick. To really use the middle pickup it would need to be wired similarly to a Strat for the basic functionality which means a 5 way switch instead of a 3 way toggle. Brian May's guitars have 3 pickups on them, but each has 2 x 2 way switches for in/out phase & on/off and master volume and tone knobs. The Jimmy Page models have push/pull pots for phase and coil taps. There are so many options to think about and how far you want to take it.

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Wow! You're a walking and talking Les Paul encyclopedia! Thanks for your insight and suggestions. Very much appreciated!

 

I haven't had the opportunity to really sit down and fiddle with all the knobs and such. I sold all of my guitar gear years ago, so I'm playing it sans amp. That will change as soon as I save up some dough.

 

As far as how it's wired, I haven't the slightest idea. That's way above my paygrade.

 

For the immediate future I plan on having the minor cosmetic issues dealt with and possibly replacing the humbuckers. I'll have to think about what I want to go with.

 

I'll take some shots of the neck and the side of the body and post them this evening.

 

For $600, I think I got great deal, so no complaints there! smile.gif

 

Thanks again!

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I spoke with the previous owner regarding the middle humbucker. He states that it works and isn't just for looks. I'm not familiar with the technical terms, so I'll explain what he said in layman's terms.

 

He had it custom wired. When the switch is in the middle position, half of the bridge humbucker and half of the neck humbucker work in conjuction with the middle humbucker. The halves which are closest to the middle pickup are the active ones.

 

I hope that makes sense. unsure.gif

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Yeah, that is a little odd, but not illogical. With that type of configuration ideally there should be some push/pull knobs. Basically the coil taps should have either an on/off and/or double/single tap functionality which would allow you to chose which pickup is on with the middle pickup. What I am thinking is pulling a knob up would defeat (turn off) the pickup in question so pulling the volume up would do this then pulling the tone knob would be the coil tap, down for double up for single. Pickup phase would be determined by placement. Strat style would be middle and neck in phase and the bridge pickup out of phase with the other two. Basically the current moves through the coils the same way on the neck and middle pickups while it moves the other way through the bridge pickup. What I am describing also assumes you retain the 2 volume 2 tone configuration, in which case it would be best to have the middle and neck going though what are normally the neck position pots. Then the toggle switch would be up for neck only middle for all 3 and down for bridge only. This would mean that you could have just the single coil running in either the neck or bridge and I would suggest using the outer coils rather than the inner coils for the distance. The you could add a small on/off toggle for the middle pickup a la Lifeson's 355 and put it near the knobs. I think this would be the easiest and most versatile functionality. So your configurations could be pretty cool: up = neck single (tone pulled up) or double coil (tone pushed down); middle = all 3 double coils (knobs pushed down), 2 singles and a double (both tones pulled up), 2 doubles and a single (one tone pulled up, one pushed down) and with the extra switch turning off the middle pickup you would also have the traditional two double coils (knobs down) and the very Tele-like two singles (neck and bridge; tones pulled up) or the Andy Summers-like single and double (one tone pulled up, one pushed down); down = bridge single (tone pulled up) or double coil (tone pushed down). Make the third switch a 3 way and you could have up be double middle be off and down be single coil and then you have a very versatile instrument.

 

Looking at the Ace replica from Gibson it looks like the back is really worn and the mahogany is very light in color so your neck is more than likely mahogany. The Ace is also a 3 piece top like yours. They are very close the only real difference being the "Custom" styling. The Ace models from the late 90s were essentially Customs but had lightning bolt inlay instead of blocks with Ace's signature on the 12th fret and Ace's solo album picture on the headstock instead of the diamond pattern inlay. When I saw him at the Regency Ballroom he played a Cherryburst and Blue versions of his model with the lightning bolts and picture.

 

Never heard the term Clown Burst. Technically it is Heritage Cherry Sunburst, which is what they call it now. Back then I think it was just Cherry Sunburst or Cherryburst. I have some literature from the early 80s and I have seen both of these terms.

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QUOTE (LerxstLuthier @ Jan 26 2012, 10:55 AM)
That's a great score for $600!
BTW, that colour scheme is known as the "clown burst" smile.gif

I like your replica! Well done, sir. I wish I had that kind of ability. You do nice work.

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QUOTE (CygnusX-1Bk2 @ Jan 26 2012, 05:35 PM)
QUOTE (LerxstLuthier @ Jan 26 2012, 10:55 AM)
That's a great score for $600!
BTW, that colour scheme is known as the "clown burst"  smile.gif

I like your replica! Well done, sir. I wish I had that kind of ability. You do nice work.

Thank you CygnusX-1Bk2!

 

I appreciate that. trink39.gif

The "clown burst" is not (obviously) an official name from Gibson, but a slang from players that refers to the hard line between transition in the burst, in a classic burst there is much more of a gradient from centre colour to the rim colour. Also the red in a clown burst is pretty much opaque as opposed to a translucent shade of red lacquer.

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Cool. I knew it wasn't official, kind of like the old "Unbursts" that had their burst fade over time. I thought it may refer to KISS makeup. tongue.gif

 

As someone who does work like this would my wiring scheme above be reasonable, or am I out on a limb?

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