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#21 Necromancer

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Posted 20 April 2008 - 09:14 PM

Who are your actual top ten faves?  



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#22 Slacker

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Posted 20 April 2008 - 09:22 PM

Chew on this question. Where would you put Tyson among the greats?

#23 treeduck

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Posted 20 April 2008 - 09:26 PM

QUOTE (gleamingalloyaircar81 @ Apr 20 2008, 09:10 PM)
QUOTE (liquidcrystalcompass @ Apr 20 2008, 05:49 PM)
QUOTE (treeduck @ Apr 20 2008, 05:10 PM)
QUOTE (liquidcrystalcompass @ Apr 20 2008, 04:57 PM)
QUOTE (treeduck @ Apr 20 2008, 03:59 PM)
QUOTE (gleamingalloyaircar81 @ Apr 20 2008, 08:28 AM)
Who do you think is the greatest boxer of all time?

Sugar Ray Robinson or Ali.

I also like Henry Armstrong.

Andsome of my favourite fighters who fought while I was alive: Hagler, Duran, Leonard, Hearns, Arguello, Chavez, Pryor, Roy Jones, James Toney and plenty more.

Would you throw Jack Johnson into the mix?

well Jack Johnson is certainly in the top 25 heavyweights of all time, maybe higher but I think his style of fighting wouldn't work against the modern heavyweights.

It's easier to pick Ali as the best heavyweight of all time because of his great opposition: Frazier, Foreman, Liston, Norton, Patterson, Archie Moore, Bob Foster, Chuvalo, Folley, Bonavena, Quarry, Shavers, Lyle, terrell and Cleveland Williams. He beat all these guys and that's amazing.

You do know that Ali used several of Johnson's moves.  Including shit talking.

What about Rocky Marciano?

Yeah Rocky was great but most of his best wins were real wars and with older guys like Ezzard Charles, a light-heavy really, a washed-up Joe Louis and jersey Joe Walcott another oldie. And he took a LOT of punishment in those fights with horrendous injuries. He did retire undefeated but it was a weak era in-between Joe Louis and the Liston/Patterson spell and later Ali/Frazier/Foreman.

I think he'd have to be in the top ten though or top twelve.

#24 treeduck

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Posted 20 April 2008 - 09:39 PM

QUOTE (Necromancer @ Apr 20 2008, 09:14 PM)
Who are your actual top ten faves?

I don't have a top ten heavyweight list per se, but I'd probably do it like this. (Edit) Actually looking back over this thread and really thinking about this I probably rate some of these guys higher than I stated in my posts. Ok here's my top 15 but it's kind of a quickly put together list, these lists are hard to do.

1 Muhammad Ali
2 Joe Louis
3 Larry Holmes
4 George Foreman
5 Rocky Marciano
6 Evander Holyfield
7 Jack Dempsey
8 Joe Frazier
9 Mike Tyson
10 Jack Johnson
11 Lennox Lewis
12 Sonny Liston
13 Floyd Patterson
14 Archie Moore
15 Gene Tunney

Whoops I was thinking just heavyweights

Overall favorites?

Well I'd have to pick guys from my "era" so it'd be a list with Hagler, Duran Leonard, Hearns, Holyfield, Chavez, Arguello, Pryor.

From recent years, Trinidad, Mosley (before vernon Forrest)Morales Barrera, Calzaghe wow there's loads of guys really, too many ofr a top ten. i can't rank boxers anymore than I can Rush albums!

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Edited by treeduck, 20 April 2008 - 09:43 PM.


#25 treeduck

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Posted 20 April 2008 - 09:45 PM

QUOTE (Slacker @ Apr 20 2008, 09:22 PM)
Chew on this question. Where would you put Tyson among the greats?

I've sort of answered this already but don't hold me to this list it's really hard to rank these guys from different eras , I could well be totally wrong and it's all subjective anyway Bob as we all know...

1 Muhammad Ali
2 Joe Louis
3 Larry Holmes
4 George Foreman
5 Rocky Marciano
6 Evander Holyfield
7 Jack Dempsey
8 Joe Frazier
9 Mike Tyson
10 Jack Johnson
11 Lennox Lewis
12 Sonny Liston
13 Floyd Patterson
14 Archie Moore
15 Gene Tunney

#26 Tick

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 05:55 AM

QUOTE (treeduck @ Apr 20 2008, 09:45 PM)
QUOTE (Slacker @ Apr 20 2008, 09:22 PM)
Chew on this question. Where would you put Tyson among the greats?

I've sort of answered this already but don't hold me to this list it's really hard to rank these guys from different eras , I could well be totally wrong and it's all subjective anyway Bob as we all know...

1 Muhammad Ali
2 Joe Louis
3 Larry Holmes
4 George Foreman
5 Rocky Marciano
6 Evander Holyfield
7 Jack Dempsey
8 Joe Frazier
9 Mike Tyson
10 Jack Johnson
11 Lennox Lewis
12 Sonny Liston
13 Floyd Patterson
14 Archie Moore
15 Gene Tunney

Holmes ahead of Smokin Joe ? I dont know about that ?


by the way, are you enjoying your thread ? biggrin.gif  

#27 nimagraven

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 07:36 AM

Hey.

Me and my Dad both considered Chris Eubank back in the day a real lazy boxer.

What are your thoughts on Eubank back in the day??

#28 liquidcrystalcompass

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 10:45 AM

QUOTE (treeduck @ Apr 20 2008, 09:45 PM)
QUOTE (Slacker @ Apr 20 2008, 09:22 PM)
Chew on this question. Where would you put Tyson among the greats?

I've sort of answered this already but don't hold me to this list it's really hard to rank these guys from different eras , I could well be totally wrong and it's all subjective anyway Bob as we all know...

1 Muhammad Ali
2 Joe Louis
3 Larry Holmes
4 George Foreman
5 Rocky Marciano
6 Evander Holyfield
7 Jack Dempsey
8 Joe Frazier
9 Mike Tyson
10 Jack Johnson
11 Lennox Lewis
12 Sonny Liston
13 Floyd Patterson
14 Archie Moore
15 Gene Tunney

Larry Holmes at 3?  Tunney at 15?  If not mistaken, Tunney never lost a fight.

#29 treeduck

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 01:52 PM

QUOTE (tick @ Apr 21 2008, 05:55 AM)
QUOTE (treeduck @ Apr 20 2008, 09:45 PM)
QUOTE (Slacker @ Apr 20 2008, 09:22 PM)
Chew on this question. Where would you put Tyson among the greats?

I've sort of answered this already but don't hold me to this list it's really hard to rank these guys from different eras , I could well be totally wrong and it's all subjective anyway Bob as we all know...

1 Muhammad Ali
2 Joe Louis
3 Larry Holmes
4 George Foreman
5 Rocky Marciano
6 Evander Holyfield
7 Jack Dempsey
8 Joe Frazier
9 Mike Tyson
10 Jack Johnson
11 Lennox Lewis
12 Sonny Liston
13 Floyd Patterson
14 Archie Moore
15 Gene Tunney

Holmes ahead of Smokin Joe ? I dont know about that ?


by the way, are you enjoying your thread ? biggrin.gif

Well Holmes was always vastly underrated Tick probably because he came after Ali and was compared to him and some people never forgave him for beating up a washed-up and sick-looking Ali in 1980. I remember the fight too and it was hard to watch.

To compare him to Joe, well he defended the title about 20 times, fought some really good opposition, Norton, Cooney, Witherspoon, Evangelista, Snipes, Shavers, Weaver. Only Mike Tyson stopped him when he was 38, when 38 was OLD for a boxer and he was still giving hell to great fighters like Holyfield in his 40s. He even beat Ray Mercer when he was 40 odd. So overall as Champion he was better than Joe and he lasted way longer. He had a really great jab, great chin, was really difficult to beat, decent right hand and he was an expert ring general. So there you go...

Yes my thread is cool thanks, I always enjoy talking boxing...

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#30 treeduck

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 01:56 PM

QUOTE (nimagraven @ Apr 21 2008, 07:36 AM)
Hey.

Me and my Dad both considered Chris Eubank back in the day a real lazy boxer.

What are your thoughts on Eubank back in the day??

I think he was pretty good,, decent puncher, concrete chin, good skills, but he didn't fight some of the best Americans of the day, Roy Jones, James Toney, Michael Nunn and Jamaican Mike McCallum.

Two reasons why he looked lazy, one he was a counter-puncher, two he had that fight with Watson where he ended up putting him in a wheelchair and I think that made him hold back a little, he really didn't want to have that happen again and was never quite the same after.

#31 treeduck

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 03:55 PM

QUOTE (liquidcrystalcompass @ Apr 21 2008, 10:45 AM)
QUOTE (treeduck @ Apr 20 2008, 09:45 PM)
QUOTE (Slacker @ Apr 20 2008, 09:22 PM)
Chew on this question. Where would you put Tyson among the greats?

I've sort of answered this already but don't hold me to this list it's really hard to rank these guys from different eras , I could well be totally wrong and it's all subjective anyway Bob as we all know...

1 Muhammad Ali
2 Joe Louis
3 Larry Holmes
4 George Foreman
5 Rocky Marciano
6 Evander Holyfield
7 Jack Dempsey
8 Joe Frazier
9 Mike Tyson
10 Jack Johnson
11 Lennox Lewis
12 Sonny Liston
13 Floyd Patterson
14 Archie Moore
15 Gene Tunney

Larry Holmes at 3?  Tunney at 15?  If not mistaken, Tunney never lost a fight.

See my other post about Holmes...

Tunney's nemesis was the great Harry Greb a middleweight who gave him hell, he gave everyone hell actually but he really used to mess up Gene. Gene was an excellent fgihter for his era but can you really imagine him beating Ali, Louis, Big George, Sonny Liston, Mike Tyson, Holmes, Frazier, Lennox Lewis, or Marciano? Also he didn't have long reign ala Louis, Homes and Ali...

#32 nimagraven

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 04:16 PM

Did you ever wish that Prince Naseem Hamed would fall flat on his face (not to injure) when he done his special party flip getting into the ring?  laugh.gif

I can't remember much of him now (I was pretty young), but I seem to remember no one liked him much and he was a bit of a joke smile.gif. Well, especially now, anyway.

I still need to see some Muhammad Ali on ESPN classic.

Does boxing have a history of fixing and general dodgyness? (Besides the well documented obvious stuff).

#33 treeduck

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 04:37 PM

QUOTE (nimagraven @ Apr 21 2008, 04:16 PM)
Did you ever wish that Prince Naseem Hamed would fall flat on his face (not to injure) when he done his special party flip getting into the ring?  laugh.gif

I can't remember much of him now (I was pretty young), but I seem to remember no one liked him much and he was a bit of a joke smile.gif. Well, especially now, anyway.

I still need to see some Muhammad Ali on ESPN classic.

Does boxing have a history of fixing and general dodgyness? (Besides the well documented obvious stuff).

People do think of him as a joke now, but if his ego hadn't gone into overdrive and he'd not cut so many corners he could have been a great fighter. His decline was a like Mike Tyson's in that at a certain point he got progressively worse with each fight. When he won the WBO featherweight title in 1995 he was at his peak, elusive, fast, unorthodox, strong and hammer-fisted, but he seemed to get lost in a whirlpool of celebrity mediocrity, stopped training properly, then split with Brendan Ingle, hired a posse of yes men and his brothers and although you can only see it in retrospect went into a slow decline.

He did make 15 defences of the title though and held IBF and WBC versions as well plus he beat the WBA champion Wilfredo Vazquez by KO but didn't get to hold that title because the WBA stripped Vazquez before the fight. And if you look at his record he had some good wins: Tom Johnson KO8, Kevin Kelly KO4, Vasquez KO8, Bungu KO 4, Soto W12, McCulloch W12, Medina KO11, Steve Robinson KO8 and he only lost once on points to the hall of fame bound Marco Antonio Barrera, so he never got knocked out. He may not have been the best featherweight of all time but he may have been the hardest puncher.

Did I want to see him fall over? Naaa I used to laugh at Naz's antics, some of the crap he spouted made me cringe at times but I was never a Naz hater...

#34 treeduck

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 04:43 PM

QUOTE (nimagraven @ Apr 21 2008, 04:16 PM)
I still need to see some Muhammad Ali on ESPN classic.

Does boxing have a history of fixing and general dodgyness? (Besides the well documented obvious stuff).

Yes watch Ali, not only was he a great boxer, he was a funny and intelligent guy. He existed in an era of hugely talented heavyweights too so he was involved in many classic fights, most of which he won.

There was a problem with fight fixing in the 40s and 50s because the Mob was invloved in boxing. Nowadays people talk of the judges being bought and whatnot but that's usually sour grapes (a little like Bernard Hopkins moaning about a robbery in the Calzaghe fight) or hometown bias.

#35 anagramking

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 04:56 PM

QUOTE (treeduck @ Apr 21 2008, 04:43 PM)
QUOTE (nimagraven @ Apr 21 2008, 04:16 PM)
I still need to see some Muhammad Ali on ESPN classic.

Does boxing have a history of fixing and general dodgyness? (Besides the well documented obvious stuff).

Yes watch Ali, not only was he a great boxer, he was a funny and intelligent guy. He existed in an era of hugely talented heavyweights too so he was involved in many classic fights, most of which he won.

There was a problem with fight fixing in the 40s and 50s because the Mob was invloved in boxing. Nowadays people talk of the judges being bought and whatnot but that's usually sour grapes (a little like Bernard Hopkins moaning about a robbery in the Calzaghe fight) or hometown bias.

Some have argued that the corruption has remained since then.  One fight I remember watching was Chavez vs. Taylor and Richard Steele stopped the fight near the end of the final round.  I remember thinking it was one of the best I had ever watched at the time, but I do wonder if Steele was right to stop it, and if it is fair to suggest that Steele was partial to Don King's fighters.

#36 treeduck

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 05:18 PM

QUOTE (anagramking @ Apr 21 2008, 04:56 PM)
QUOTE (treeduck @ Apr 21 2008, 04:43 PM)
QUOTE (nimagraven @ Apr 21 2008, 04:16 PM)
I still need to see some Muhammad Ali on ESPN classic.

Does boxing have a history of fixing and general dodgyness? (Besides the well documented obvious stuff).

Yes watch Ali, not only was he a great boxer, he was a funny and intelligent guy. He existed in an era of hugely talented heavyweights too so he was involved in many classic fights, most of which he won.

There was a problem with fight fixing in the 40s and 50s because the Mob was invloved in boxing. Nowadays people talk of the judges being bought and whatnot but that's usually sour grapes (a little like Bernard Hopkins moaning about a robbery in the Calzaghe fight) or hometown bias.

Some have argued that the corruption has remained since then.  One fight I remember watching was Chavez vs. Taylor and Richard Steele stopped the fight near the end of the final round.  I remember thinking it was one of the best I had ever watched at the time, but I do wonder if Steele was right to stop it, and if it is fair to suggest that Steele was partial to Don King's fighters.

I know that we could all see that there was only a few seconds to go in the Chavez-Taylor fight, so it looked like a rigged stoppage but the much maligned Steele didn't know that and Taylor was "gone" and his injuries after the fight back that up, ie: broken eye-socket.

I think there are dodgy descisions, like Chavez-Whitaker and Lewis-Holyfield I but I think it's more to do with biased judges than a pre-fixed fight. I mean if taylor was fixed to lose and he knew it, do you think he'd fight so hard right to end to the point of getting his eyesocket smashed and be ruined for the rest of his career, which he was? I don't think so...

#37 anagramking

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 05:24 PM

QUOTE (treeduck @ Apr 21 2008, 05:18 PM)
QUOTE (anagramking @ Apr 21 2008, 04:56 PM)
QUOTE (treeduck @ Apr 21 2008, 04:43 PM)
QUOTE (nimagraven @ Apr 21 2008, 04:16 PM)
I still need to see some Muhammad Ali on ESPN classic.

Does boxing have a history of fixing and general dodgyness? (Besides the well documented obvious stuff).

Yes watch Ali, not only was he a great boxer, he was a funny and intelligent guy. He existed in an era of hugely talented heavyweights too so he was involved in many classic fights, most of which he won.

There was a problem with fight fixing in the 40s and 50s because the Mob was invloved in boxing. Nowadays people talk of the judges being bought and whatnot but that's usually sour grapes (a little like Bernard Hopkins moaning about a robbery in the Calzaghe fight) or hometown bias.

Some have argued that the corruption has remained since then.  One fight I remember watching was Chavez vs. Taylor and Richard Steele stopped the fight near the end of the final round.  I remember thinking it was one of the best I had ever watched at the time, but I do wonder if Steele was right to stop it, and if it is fair to suggest that Steele was partial to Don King's fighters.

I know that we could all see that there was only a few seconds to go in the Chavez-Taylor fight, so it looked like a rigged stoppage but the much maligned Steele didn't know that and Taylor was "gone" and his injuries after the fight back that up, ie: broken eye-socket.

I think there are dodgy descisions, like Chavez-Whitaker and Lewis-Holyfield I but I think it's more to do with biased judges than a pre-fixed fight. I mean if taylor was fixed to lose and he knew it, do you think he'd fight so hard right to end to the point of getting his eyesocket smashed and be ruined for the rest of his career, which he was? I don't think so...

I wasn't suggesting that Taylor was in on the fix, only that Steele would have been.  But you make good points.  I didn't realize Taylor had the broken eye socket.

Also, wasn't Liston supposedly paid off against Ali (at the time Cassius Clay)?

#38 treeduck

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 05:38 PM

QUOTE (anagramking @ Apr 21 2008, 05:24 PM)
QUOTE (treeduck @ Apr 21 2008, 05:18 PM)
QUOTE (anagramking @ Apr 21 2008, 04:56 PM)
QUOTE (treeduck @ Apr 21 2008, 04:43 PM)
QUOTE (nimagraven @ Apr 21 2008, 04:16 PM)
I still need to see some Muhammad Ali on ESPN classic.

Does boxing have a history of fixing and general dodgyness? (Besides the well documented obvious stuff).

Yes watch Ali, not only was he a great boxer, he was a funny and intelligent guy. He existed in an era of hugely talented heavyweights too so he was involved in many classic fights, most of which he won.

There was a problem with fight fixing in the 40s and 50s because the Mob was invloved in boxing. Nowadays people talk of the judges being bought and whatnot but that's usually sour grapes (a little like Bernard Hopkins moaning about a robbery in the Calzaghe fight) or hometown bias.

Some have argued that the corruption has remained since then.  One fight I remember watching was Chavez vs. Taylor and Richard Steele stopped the fight near the end of the final round.  I remember thinking it was one of the best I had ever watched at the time, but I do wonder if Steele was right to stop it, and if it is fair to suggest that Steele was partial to Don King's fighters.

I know that we could all see that there was only a few seconds to go in the Chavez-Taylor fight, so it looked like a rigged stoppage but the much maligned Steele didn't know that and Taylor was "gone" and his injuries after the fight back that up, ie: broken eye-socket.

I think there are dodgy descisions, like Chavez-Whitaker and Lewis-Holyfield I but I think it's more to do with biased judges than a pre-fixed fight. I mean if taylor was fixed to lose and he knew it, do you think he'd fight so hard right to end to the point of getting his eyesocket smashed and be ruined for the rest of his career, which he was? I don't think so...

I wasn't suggesting that Taylor was in on the fix, only that Steele would have been.  But you make good points.  I didn't realize Taylor had the broken eye socket.

Also, wasn't Liston supposedly paid off against Ali (at the time Cassius Clay)?

Boxing is always linked to dodgy deals as it attracts dodgy characters, probably because a lot of boxers come from dodgy backgrounds and the lure of big money is strong but also it's past mob connections and let's face it all sports that people make bets on are prone to accusations, I mean look at tennis with Davydenko accused of match-fixing recently.

In my experience the fights aren't rigged but sometimes when it goes the full twelve or ten rounds, the wrong guy wins and sometimes you get a hometown ref who is rough on the away fighter to the point that the result is affected, but not as often as people might think.

As for Don King, he's a crook for sure but he doesn't need to fix fights, if you notice when one of his fighters gets beat he just ends up somehow taking over as the winning boxer's promoter, if he doesn't promote them already. This uncanny ability kept him "controlling" the heavyweight division for nearly two decades, so Don didn't need match-fixing. Also he was too busy robbing money from his hapless fighters.



#39 Tick

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Posted 22 April 2008 - 12:07 PM

Put the following boxers in order, and tell me why you rate them as such.
The great Italian bleeders trio !
Vinny Pazienza, Arturo Gatti, Ray Mancini
Am I forgetting someone ?

#40 Gompers

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Posted 22 April 2008 - 12:37 PM

I'm trying to ship a computer to my brother in California. It's a standard ATX case. He doesn't need the monitor. I'm thinking I should use a 36"x36"x24" thick cardboard box with bubblewrap, not popcorn, to cushion the PC.

Do you think his is the best way to box it up?






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