Ask Treeduck boxing questions !

[Tick]

I know Treeduck wont find me voluteering himself to answer your questions about the sweet science so lets get this party started...

 

Who would win a fight between Miquel Cotto and Floyd Mayweather and why ?

Edited April 20, 2008 by tick

[gleamingalloyaircar81]

Who do you think is the greatest boxer of all time?

[Slacker]

How many left hooks would I have to lay on you before you beg for a right hook?

 

 

[Necromancer]

What is the vaseline for? Is that so the blows slide off the face? To protect the skin from the leather?

 

 

Did i just answer my own question? Sorry.

 

Okay... here's another. What is on those Q-tips they put in the boxer's cuts that make the boxer wince in pain so much? Is it superglue. I heard that once, but i would think that would be illegal.

[Tick]

Here ducky, ducky, ducky !

[treeduck]

QUOTE (tick @ Apr 20 2008, 07:34 AM)

I know Treeduck wont find me voluteering himself to answer your questions about the sweet science so lets get this party started... Who would win a fight between Miquel Cotto and Floyd Mayweather and why ?

Ok well this could be long-winded but here's a little background...

 

I've been following both of these fighters since they turned pro and both started with Top Rank (Bob Arum's promotional company) but these days Mayweather has dumped Bob and gone solo (making Bob very bitter, he hates other people's fighters), making fights with Oscar De La Hoya, Hatton Zab Judah and Carlos Baldomir. Hardcore fans didn't like these fights, Hatton was a 140 guy, Baldo just a tough journeyman who got lucky, Zab had just lost to Baldo and Oscar is pretty much past his best. I have to hand it to Mayweather though he's making big money and has made himself sometihng of a household name, when under Bob's wing he was unknown to casual sports fans.

 

Anyway most hardcore boxing fans wanted to see Mayweather fight the likes of Miguel Cotto, Antonio Margarito, Paul Williams (who since lost), in other words dangerous guys with skill, size or just toughness who come to fight.

 

Mayweather has come up from 130 pounds, through 135, 140 and 147 to 154, but while he cleaned out 130 and fought the best guys at 135, he's picked and chosen his foes thereafter very selectively and remained unbeaten.

 

Cotto has been brought along nicely by Top Rank facing increasingly tougher opponents and beat them all. Although suffered a few scares at 140 against Corley (rocked badly and out on his feet), Torres (rocked repeatedly, knocked down and almost out) but both times he roared back to win. Since moving up to 147 though his chin looks solid and he's put together a great sries of wins against Mosley, Judah and Quintana. His last win was last week against the overmatched Arturo Gatti-conqueror and TV Contender Alphonso Gomez.

 

In these fights Cotto has also improved defensively with better footwork and movement especially against Mosley in the last three rounds and an excellent jab, he also looks faster at 147. The thing about Cotto is he seems to do real damage with his punches, I mean he literally breaks bones, Malignacci had a broken cheekbone and ended up looking like the elephant man after 12 rounds with him and that was down at 140. Even granite-chinned Mosley looked busted up after their fight.

 

As for Mayweather well he's fast and has old school defensive skills, using the shoulder roll similar to James Toney, good footwork, upper body movement, he's hard to hit cleanly. He's not a heavy puncher but he's very accurate and sharp as he demonstrated against Hatton, if he can hit you often you're going down.

 

Who would I pick to win? I've sort of been avoiding the question here but, well in the past I always picked Mayweather to win this one and I still do, he's the only fighter I've ever seen who never takes any real punishment in fights, I tihnk that's why a lot of hardcore fans don't like him, they like their heroes to show their mettle by coming through at least a couple of wars, that and his slick style.

 

I still think Floyd would edge Miguel, I think Floyd even after all this time has yet to show all he can do and I think Cotto would force him to fight and he would rise to the occasion, against Oscar and Hatton he just di enough to win. Ultimately I think Floyd would take the UD after a an absorbing but not totally exciting fight, a rematch might be in order afterwards, as Mayweather says if it makes dollars it makes sense. Will the fight even happen though I hear you say? Yes! Probably next year though.

 

In the meantime the fight you have to watch is Cotto against Margarito on July 26 that will be a TOTAL WAR between two KILLERS, and the winner will (eventually) face Floyd.

 

 

[treeduck]

QUOTE (gleamingalloyaircar81 @ Apr 20 2008, 08:28 AM)

Who do you think is the greatest boxer of all time?

Sugar Ray Robinson or Ali.

 

I also like Henry Armstrong.

 

Andsome of my favourite fighters who fought while I was alive: Hagler, Duran, Leonard, Hearns, Arguello, Chavez, Pryor, Roy Jones, James Toney and plenty more.

[treeduck]

QUOTE (Slacker @ Apr 20 2008, 09:22 AM)

How many left hooks would I have to lay on you before you beg for a right hook?

Probably just one and the right hook would put me to sleep!!

 

[treeduck]

QUOTE (Necromancer @ Apr 20 2008, 10:34 AM)

What is the vaseline for? Is that so the blows slide off the face? To protect the skin from the leather? Did i just answer my own question? Sorry. Okay... here's another. What is on those Q-tips they put in the boxer's cuts that make the boxer wince in pain so much? Is it superglue. I heard that once, but i would think that would be illegal.

Yes you're correct about the vaseline, it also forms a temporary protective layer over scar tissue, which is why you see guys laying it on a fighters brow even when he's not cut. Ref's generally wipe it off if they notice.

 

The Q-tips are usually used to soak up blood from a cut inside the nose, it's got to hurt so I think that wakes them up. They may have something like alcohol on there to clear their head but to be honest I'm not completely sure on that one Necro.

[treeduck]

QUOTE (tick @ Apr 20 2008, 03:12 PM)

Here ducky, ducky, ducky !

I couldn't find the thread for ages, I was looking in Grand Designs!

 

[Tick]

Hey ducky, im a rather big boxing fan and rather then quote your rather lengthy post about Cotto, Mayweather i'll just respond.

I have watched all Mayweathers and Cottos most recent fights and this is my take. I think two years ago i would have picked Mayweather to win that bout. Upon watching the growth and improvement in Cotto over his last few fights i now feel differently.

Hatten is not even close to the class of fighter as Cotto is, so im not suprised at the outcome of Mayweather, Hatton. I think it was a nice win for Floyd but boxing fans demand the Cotto fight ! This will be one for the ages.

After witnessing the absolute embarrasment of Contender alumni Gomez last week, i feel Cotto is peaking and is one dangerous and more importantly, hungry fighter. Im not saying Mayweather is not a great fighter but i think he is ripe to be beaten and i firmly believe Cotto will be the man to do it. Untill then, i totally think Margarito will give Cotto more then he can handle and upon his victory, Cottos stock will never be higher. It is at this point, the powers that be must make Mayweather, Cotto a reality ! This is the fight i am dying to see !

[treeduck]

QUOTE (tick @ Apr 20 2008, 04:20 PM)

Hey ducky, im a rather big boxing fan and rather then quote your rather lengthy post about Cotto, Mayweather i'll just respond. I have watched all Mayweathers and Cottos most recent fights and this is my take. I think two years ago i would have picked Mayweather to win that bout. Upon watching the growth and improvement in Cotto over his last few fights i now feel differently. Hatten is not even close to the class of fighter as Cotto is, so im not suprised at the outcome of Mayweather, Hatton. I think it was a nice win for Floyd but boxing fans demand the Cotto fight ! This will be one for the ages. After witnessing the absolute embarrasment of Contender alumni Gomez last week, i feel Cotto is peaking and is one dangerous and more importantly, hungry fighter. Im not saying Mayweather is not a great fighter but i think he is ripe to be beaten and i firmly believe Cotto will be the man to do it. Untill then, i totally think Margarito will give Cotto more then he can handle and upon his victory, Cottos stock will never be higher. It is at this point, the powers that be must make Mayweather, Cotto a reality ! This is the fight i am dying to see !

It could be that you're right Tick and Cotto wins, it's definitely the toughest match-up for Floyd. I might even change my mind after the Margarito fight. I've still got some minor reservations about Miguel (his chin and his 5'7" stature but neither of those are factors in a Floyd fight) but I certainly wouldn't argue with your selection of Cotto, he's the all around package, skills, power, toughness, aggression, decent speed, good jab and he's got that great fighter aura about him too where you can't see him losing.

 

The Cotto-Margarito fight is gonna be fantastic, not only a great fight to watch but the significance of it will make it a great event. I can't wait for that one, should be fight of the year!

 

[liquidcrystalcompass]

QUOTE (treeduck @ Apr 20 2008, 03:59 PM)

QUOTE (gleamingalloyaircar81 @ Apr 20 2008, 08:28 AM) Who do you think is the greatest boxer of all time? Sugar Ray Robinson or Ali.   I also like Henry Armstrong.   Andsome of my favourite fighters who fought while I was alive: Hagler, Duran, Leonard, Hearns, Arguello, Chavez, Pryor, Roy Jones, James Toney and plenty more. Would you throw Jack Johnson into the mix?

[treeduck]

QUOTE (liquidcrystalcompass @ Apr 20 2008, 04:57 PM)

QUOTE (treeduck @ Apr 20 2008, 03:59 PM) QUOTE (gleamingalloyaircar81 @ Apr 20 2008, 08:28 AM) Who do you think is the greatest boxer of all time? Sugar Ray Robinson or Ali.   I also like Henry Armstrong.   Andsome of my favourite fighters who fought while I was alive: Hagler, Duran, Leonard, Hearns, Arguello, Chavez, Pryor, Roy Jones, James Toney and plenty more. Would you throw Jack Johnson into the mix? well Jack Johnson is certainly in the top 25 heavyweights of all time, maybe higher but I think his style of fighting wouldn't work against the modern heavyweights.   It's easier to pick Ali as the best heavyweight of all time because of his great opposition: Frazier, Foreman, Liston, Norton, Patterson, Archie Moore, Bob Foster, Chuvalo, Folley, Bonavena, Quarry, Shavers, Lyle, terrell and Cleveland Williams. He beat all these guys and that's amazing.

[liquidcrystalcompass]

QUOTE (treeduck @ Apr 20 2008, 05:10 PM)

QUOTE (liquidcrystalcompass @ Apr 20 2008, 04:57 PM) QUOTE (treeduck @ Apr 20 2008, 03:59 PM) QUOTE (gleamingalloyaircar81 @ Apr 20 2008, 08:28 AM) Who do you think is the greatest boxer of all time? Sugar Ray Robinson or Ali.   I also like Henry Armstrong.   Andsome of my favourite fighters who fought while I was alive: Hagler, Duran, Leonard, Hearns, Arguello, Chavez, Pryor, Roy Jones, James Toney and plenty more. Would you throw Jack Johnson into the mix? well Jack Johnson is certainly in the top 25 heavyweights of all time, maybe higher but I think his style of fighting wouldn't work against the modern heavyweights.   It's easier to pick Ali as the best heavyweight of all time because of his great opposition: Frazier, Foreman, Liston, Norton, Patterson, Archie Moore, Bob Foster, Chuvalo, Folley, Bonavena, Quarry, Shavers, Lyle, terrell and Cleveland Williams. He beat all these guys and that's amazing. You do know that Ali used several of Johnson's moves. Including shit talking.

[treeduck]

QUOTE (liquidcrystalcompass @ Apr 20 2008, 05:49 PM)

QUOTE (treeduck @ Apr 20 2008, 05:10 PM) QUOTE (liquidcrystalcompass @ Apr 20 2008, 04:57 PM) QUOTE (treeduck @ Apr 20 2008, 03:59 PM) QUOTE (gleamingalloyaircar81 @ Apr 20 2008, 08:28 AM) Who do you think is the greatest boxer of all time? Sugar Ray Robinson or Ali.   I also like Henry Armstrong.   Andsome of my favourite fighters who fought while I was alive: Hagler, Duran, Leonard, Hearns, Arguello, Chavez, Pryor, Roy Jones, James Toney and plenty more. Would you throw Jack Johnson into the mix? well Jack Johnson is certainly in the top 25 heavyweights of all time, maybe higher but I think his style of fighting wouldn't work against the modern heavyweights.   It's easier to pick Ali as the best heavyweight of all time because of his great opposition: Frazier, Foreman, Liston, Norton, Patterson, Archie Moore, Bob Foster, Chuvalo, Folley, Bonavena, Quarry, Shavers, Lyle, terrell and Cleveland Williams. He beat all these guys and that's amazing. You do know that Ali used several of Johnson's moves. Including shit talking. Yes, Johnson was the first ballsy, outspoken, black boxer, a real character, but Ali took that to another level when he came along and he was even smarter than Johnson.   As for style well Ali was faster by a long way and could dance for 12 rounds which no other 220 pound 6 foot 3 guy has ever been able to do. And of course that brings me to size, Ali was much bigger than Johnson as well, Jack was only 6'1" and weighed 200 pounds or less, 185 was his best weight.   Oh wait a sec Johnson was from Texas, The Galveston Giant, now it makes sense LCC!

[Tick]

Where do you rate Evander Hollyfield among the greatest heavyweights of alltime ?

Do you think he still would have beaten Tyson when he was at his best ?

 

I personally consider him vastly underated. I loved Hollyfield !

[treeduck]

QUOTE (tick @ Apr 20 2008, 07:11 PM)

Where do you rate Evander Hollyfield among the greatest heavyweights of alltime ? Do you think he still would have beaten Tyson when he was at his best ? I personally consider him vastly underated. I loved Hollyfield !

That's a very good couple of questions Tick.

 

Holyfield must be up there, top 12, top 15 at least. You have to consider his size, which compared to a lot of guys he was fighting (Bowe, Lewis) was small. Imagine if Evander had been as big as Bowe? He'd have destroyed him! But we have to judge him as he was, anyway yeah, you add up all his wins, Bowe, Tyson, Foreman, Holmes (even though those two were 40 odd they were still tough and good), Dokes, Moorer, the draw and close loss with Lewis, Buster Douglas and so on.

 

His attributes were many, combination punching, good footwork, a warrior spirit, granite chin, decent jab, good speed and a mighty will.

 

Would he have beaten Tyson in the 80s? This is a really tough question. I followed these guys back when they were up and comers. I particularly took notice of Tyson because he was the first athlete my age to reach the top. It's become popular to run Tyson down nowadays and disregard his reign from november 1986 to feb 1990. Certainly looking back now it's obvious he reached his peak in 1988 with the blowouts of Holmes, Tubbs and Michael Spinks. No one ever did that to those guys before or after.

 

When Tyson was champion then and Holyfield was cruiserweight champ and then later a heavyweight contender fighting the likes of Dokes and Stewart, there was plenty of talk of Holyfiled as a potential opponent for Tyson. I just couldn't see it though, Tyson looked too powerful and too fast for Evander.

 

After 1988 though Tyson went into a long, slow decline; he struggled early on with Bruno in 1989, then of course didn't train at all for douglas and got shocked. Then he struggled twice with Razor Ruddock and even then looked a half-power version of himself. After coming out of prison in 95 he seemed even more diminished and after picking up a few easy wins including another beating of Bruno he was lined up to face Holyfiled at last. I still couldn't see Holyfiled winning, he'd been stopped for the first itme by Bowe in the third fight, which indicated he may be shot, and had a hard time with light-heavy Bobby Czyz. So how could he beat Tyson? He fooled us all though and created a second career for himself.

 

To answer your question directly though, Tyson would have crushed Evander between 1986-89.

 

I'd have to rate Tyson below Evander in the top heavyweight list because of the losses and performances after the 80s, Evander showed greater heart, longevity and fortitude. However, if Jim Jacobs had lived another 15 years and kept Tyson from going off the rails during his career Mike could have been the best of all time and retired with something like a 65-O record. It wouldn't matter that Mike was an "on top" fighter with a lack of heart hidden away, he wouldn't have needed it, he'd have destroyed everyone before they had a chance to reveal it. This Alternate Tyson career is just speculation though.

 

Damn another long answer...

 

[liquidcrystalcompass]

QUOTE (treeduck @ Apr 20 2008, 06:00 PM)

QUOTE (liquidcrystalcompass @ Apr 20 2008, 05:49 PM) QUOTE (treeduck @ Apr 20 2008, 05:10 PM) QUOTE (liquidcrystalcompass @ Apr 20 2008, 04:57 PM) QUOTE (treeduck @ Apr 20 2008, 03:59 PM) QUOTE (gleamingalloyaircar81 @ Apr 20 2008, 08:28 AM) Who do you think is the greatest boxer of all time? Sugar Ray Robinson or Ali.   I also like Henry Armstrong.   Andsome of my favourite fighters who fought while I was alive: Hagler, Duran, Leonard, Hearns, Arguello, Chavez, Pryor, Roy Jones, James Toney and plenty more. Would you throw Jack Johnson into the mix? well Jack Johnson is certainly in the top 25 heavyweights of all time, maybe higher but I think his style of fighting wouldn't work against the modern heavyweights.   It's easier to pick Ali as the best heavyweight of all time because of his great opposition: Frazier, Foreman, Liston, Norton, Patterson, Archie Moore, Bob Foster, Chuvalo, Folley, Bonavena, Quarry, Shavers, Lyle, terrell and Cleveland Williams. He beat all these guys and that's amazing. You do know that Ali used several of Johnson's moves. Including shit talking. Yes, Johnson was the first ballsy, outspoken, black boxer, a real character, but Ali took that to another level when he came along and he was even smarter than Johnson.   As for style well Ali was faster by a long way and could dance for 12 rounds which no other 220 pound 6 foot 3 guy has ever been able to do. And of course that brings me to size, Ali was much bigger than Johnson as well, Jack was only 6'1" and weighed 200 pounds or less, 185 was his best weight.   Oh wait a sec Johnson was from Texas, The Galveston Giant, now it makes sense LCC!   The Republic of Texas

[gleamingalloyaircar81]

QUOTE (liquidcrystalcompass @ Apr 20 2008, 05:49 PM)

QUOTE (treeduck @ Apr 20 2008, 05:10 PM) QUOTE (liquidcrystalcompass @ Apr 20 2008, 04:57 PM) QUOTE (treeduck @ Apr 20 2008, 03:59 PM) QUOTE (gleamingalloyaircar81 @ Apr 20 2008, 08:28 AM) Who do you think is the greatest boxer of all time? Sugar Ray Robinson or Ali.   I also like Henry Armstrong.   Andsome of my favourite fighters who fought while I was alive: Hagler, Duran, Leonard, Hearns, Arguello, Chavez, Pryor, Roy Jones, James Toney and plenty more. Would you throw Jack Johnson into the mix? well Jack Johnson is certainly in the top 25 heavyweights of all time, maybe higher but I think his style of fighting wouldn't work against the modern heavyweights.   It's easier to pick Ali as the best heavyweight of all time because of his great opposition: Frazier, Foreman, Liston, Norton, Patterson, Archie Moore, Bob Foster, Chuvalo, Folley, Bonavena, Quarry, Shavers, Lyle, terrell and Cleveland Williams. He beat all these guys and that's amazing. You do know that Ali used several of Johnson's moves. Including shit talking. What about Rocky Marciano?

[Necromancer]

Who are your actual top ten faves?

 

 

[Slacker]

Chew on this question. Where would you put Tyson among the greats?

[treeduck]

QUOTE (gleamingalloyaircar81 @ Apr 20 2008, 09:10 PM)

QUOTE (liquidcrystalcompass @ Apr 20 2008, 05:49 PM) QUOTE (treeduck @ Apr 20 2008, 05:10 PM) QUOTE (liquidcrystalcompass @ Apr 20 2008, 04:57 PM) QUOTE (treeduck @ Apr 20 2008, 03:59 PM) QUOTE (gleamingalloyaircar81 @ Apr 20 2008, 08:28 AM) Who do you think is the greatest boxer of all time? Sugar Ray Robinson or Ali.   I also like Henry Armstrong.   Andsome of my favourite fighters who fought while I was alive: Hagler, Duran, Leonard, Hearns, Arguello, Chavez, Pryor, Roy Jones, James Toney and plenty more. Would you throw Jack Johnson into the mix? well Jack Johnson is certainly in the top 25 heavyweights of all time, maybe higher but I think his style of fighting wouldn't work against the modern heavyweights.   It's easier to pick Ali as the best heavyweight of all time because of his great opposition: Frazier, Foreman, Liston, Norton, Patterson, Archie Moore, Bob Foster, Chuvalo, Folley, Bonavena, Quarry, Shavers, Lyle, terrell and Cleveland Williams. He beat all these guys and that's amazing. You do know that Ali used several of Johnson's moves. Including shit talking. What about Rocky Marciano? Yeah Rocky was great but most of his best wins were real wars and with older guys like Ezzard Charles, a light-heavy really, a washed-up Joe Louis and jersey Joe Walcott another oldie. And he took a LOT of punishment in those fights with horrendous injuries. He did retire undefeated but it was a weak era in-between Joe Louis and the Liston/Patterson spell and later Ali/Frazier/Foreman.   I think he'd have to be in the top ten though or top twelve.

[treeduck]

QUOTE (Necromancer @ Apr 20 2008, 09:14 PM)

Who are your actual top ten faves?

I don't have a top ten heavyweight list per se, but I'd probably do it like this. (Edit) Actually looking back over this thread and really thinking about this I probably rate some of these guys higher than I stated in my posts. Ok here's my top 15 but it's kind of a quickly put together list, these lists are hard to do.

 

1 Muhammad Ali

2 Joe Louis

3 Larry Holmes

4 George Foreman

5 Rocky Marciano

6 Evander Holyfield

7 Jack Dempsey

8 Joe Frazier

9 Mike Tyson

10 Jack Johnson

11 Lennox Lewis

12 Sonny Liston

13 Floyd Patterson

14 Archie Moore

15 Gene Tunney

 

Whoops I was thinking just heavyweights

 

Overall favorites?

 

Well I'd have to pick guys from my "era" so it'd be a list with Hagler, Duran Leonard, Hearns, Holyfield, Chavez, Arguello, Pryor.

 

From recent years, Trinidad, Mosley (before vernon Forrest)Morales Barrera, Calzaghe wow there's loads of guys really, too many ofr a top ten. i can't rank boxers anymore than I can Rush albums!

 

Edited April 21, 2008 by treeduck

[treeduck]

QUOTE (Slacker @ Apr 20 2008, 09:22 PM)

Chew on this question. Where would you put Tyson among the greats?

I've sort of answered this already but don't hold me to this list it's really hard to rank these guys from different eras , I could well be totally wrong and it's all subjective anyway Bob as we all know...

 

1 Muhammad Ali

2 Joe Louis

3 Larry Holmes

4 George Foreman

5 Rocky Marciano

6 Evander Holyfield

7 Jack Dempsey

8 Joe Frazier

9 Mike Tyson

10 Jack Johnson

11 Lennox Lewis

12 Sonny Liston

13 Floyd Patterson

14 Archie Moore

15 Gene Tunney