Topographic Oceans - Rush Influence?

[petsounds75]

Even though there's lots of Yes fans that don't really care for Tales From The Topographic Oceans (rel. 1973) I do feel that a big part of Rush's early days with Neil at the helm of lyrics and influence on the music seems like he's taken a big liking to groups like Yes, Genesis and even ELP. Up until Rush, Carl Palmer of ELP was the fastest and rudementary skilled young drummer in rock...unlike Keith Moon and Ginger Baker who struck anything within stick's reach at alarming speed...whereas Peart seemed like Bill Bruford and Carl Palmer wrapped into one happy package.

 

I picked up the new remastered Topographic Oceans (if you like this album but want a 1000% improvment in sound and the songs played as they were initially intended- GET THE REISSUE!) and I couldn't help noticing things that obviously HAD to influence early Rush...especially on their 2112/Farewell/Hemispheres albums. Musically, Hemispheres seems almost like a carbon copy of the best parts of Topographic Oceans with more muscle and volume that only Rush could provide for such a piece such as "Oceans".

 

What do you guys think? I clearly think that Yes had a major influence on Rush...even after Rush's sci-fi epic phase with such colorful and heavy musical substance.

[NeilPeartFan2112]

I don't really know much about the topic so I couldn't say. I personally think a lot of their stuff from their first album sounds a lot like Led Zeppelin, and I heard that they were influenced by The Who.

[circumstantial tree]

Initially, I didn't care for Topographic Oceans, because it was just too much to take in at once. But these days, I love it!

 

Be looking out for the next Yes dvd: Songs from Tsongas which is due out next month. And I maybe featured inside it as I was at that particular show close to the stage.

[petsounds75]

QUOTE (NeilPeartFan2112 @ Nov 29 2004, 10:28 PM)

I don't really know much about the topic so I couldn't say. I personally think a lot of their stuff from their first album sounds a lot like Led Zeppelin, and I heard that they were influenced by The Who.

I'm talking about when Peart was taking the reigns as the lyricist. Where he dabbled on Fly By Night and started taking control on Caress Of Steel.

 

Yes, Rush's first one does indeed sound like Zep/Who type stuff. Even with a heavy helping of Cream/Clapton. That's what Rush started out doing was songs from groups like that.

 

Rush didn't have the big brained influence of Peart on the first one because, well, Peart wasn't on it. It was all Geddy and Alex on that first one...and you know how they are. Rock on, party, be goofy and have fun.

 

I was saying that stuff Yes did in 1972/73 such as Close To The Edge and Tales from The Topographic Oceans seem very similar to Rush's 2112/Hemispheres/Farewell To Kings epic days. Lyrically and musically.

 

I'm thinking Peart was listening heavily to Yes/King Crimson/Pink Floyd/Genesis/ELP during the early 70's before joining Rush and took that influence of those groups lyrical schtick and made his own verison of the same lyrical schtick in Rush but with much more accessiblity to your average listener.

[1-0-0-1-0-0-1]

I still have trouble getting a handle on Topographic Oceans. It still seems overblown and pretentious to me. And as far as Neil (or anybody at that time) being influenced by the side-long epics of that album, I'll bet Close To The Edge had much more influence than Oceans.

 

(BTW, currently listening to "South Side Of The Sky" from Fragile. Amazing song.)

[petsounds75]

Ha! Weird. Listened to South Side about half an hour ago.

 

I hear some Brian Wilson vocal influences in that one. Damn good rocking song too!

 

Yeah, that song gets passed up so much and eclipsed by "Heart/Sunrise" and "And You And I".

 

[Moonraker]

I read in an interview around the time of Rush recording Hemispheres that Geddy was really getting into Topographic Oceans in terms of songwriting. It is very funny you should mention that because I have read documented proof to that theory.

[petsounds75]

Close/Edge does seems sorta Rush epic-saga type stuff...but I'm going to have to go with Oceans, as far as the song structures go. Edge seemed like it was slapped together at the last minute...which Bill Bruford said the same of it years later, whereas Oceans seems - while fragmented - much more cohesive and continues the theme throughout the whole piece of work. Edge seems to try to do that somewhat, but then again, they were just beginning to tackle such long works.

 

As for "Oceans" being overblown and pretentious...yeah, it does seem that way. Rick Wakeman did regard it back then as songs being "bled to death". A band like that always needs someone to cut through the b.s. But there are sections of those songs that are really good and colorful. Especially the last five minutes of Remembering (Track 2/CD - Side 2/Record 1) which has a last minute of Rush's Marathon musical feel to it or tail end of Hemispheres to it.

 

Yeah, I guess I like wide sounding chorusy stuff and progressing chords to end off a good song. 2112 and Hemispheres or (Cygnus XII for you Rush obssesors) really do the same as Oceans does with their songs...minus Ancient, which just seems to be an acoustic piece.

 

 

ADDED/EDITED: I guess we're all messing with Yes and Rush today!

[faultline]

Rush was the stepping stone for me, towards Yes. Edge was the 1st yes album I got into . I never got oceans though, I will have to go get it. As well as

Relayer, I never got that one either. I remember , on some level , being disappointed with Perm W becaus it did not continue the epic legacy so much. I have to admitt , that I enjoy Neil Pearts lyrics so much more than Jon

Andersons . I have a hard time tracking Jon , and when I do, I would be just as pleased if he was singing Japanese!!

Speaking of Brian Wilson, have you picked up Smile yet. It is better than Pet sounds IMO! I missed the concert out here in LA, but I am a real fan.

[petsounds75]

Yes, I got SMiLE. It's VERY good.

 

Of course, I wish Brian would slap together something with the 1966 Smile material because from what I've read, what's on the 2004 Smile is nothing that hasn't been done in 1966, but since Carl and Dennis are dead, along with Brian having boku trouble with Mike Love, it was impossible for them to release what was recorded and have it put together.

 

I also think that Van Dyke Parks who wrote the lyrics for Smile would have been the first tackle of such lyrics in rock, which is definetly of the caliber that Neil and Jon Anderson write in, but he was years ahead of them of course.

 

Man, to have a surf band just launch into something like Smile being released in 1966...that would have turned the music world on it's ear.

 

Yeah, Jon Anderson's material is hard to follow where Neil's sticks to the topics and premise of the songs.

 

Oceans is very good...but you'd better listen to it when you have nothing to do for the next two hours. Relayer is...well, ok. The second track on it (Soundchaser) is really sucky. It tries to be "Edge" but fails miserably. I'd say with Relayer they change gears lyrically and I highly doubt that would have been a Rush influence.

 

But yes, I do feel that Oceans was a heavy duty influence on 2112/Hemispheres in musical and lyrical structure moreso than any other Yes album.

[faultline]

QUOTE (petsounds75 @ Nov 30 2004, 02:48 AM)

Yes, I got SMiLE. It's VERY good. Of course, I wish Brian would slap together something with the 1966 Smile material because from what I've read, what's on the 2004 Smile is nothing that hasn't been done in 1966, but since Carl and Dennis are dead, along with Brian having boku trouble with Mike Love, it was impossible for them to release what was recorded and have it put together. I also think that Van Dyke Parks who wrote the lyrics for Smile would have been the first tackle of such lyrics in rock, which is definetly of the caliber that Neil and Jon Anderson write in, but he was years ahead of them of course. Man, to have a surf band just launch into something like Smile being released in 1966...that would have turned the music world on it's ear. Yeah, Jon Anderson's material is hard to follow where Neil's sticks to the topics and premise of the songs. Oceans is very good...but you'd better listen to it when you have nothing to do for the next two hours. Relayer is...well, ok. The second track on it (Soundchaser) is really sucky. It tries to be "Edge" but fails miserably. I'd say with Relayer they change gears lyrically and I highly doubt that would have been a Rush influence. But yes, I do feel that Oceans was a heavy duty influence on 2112/Hemispheres in musical and lyrical structure moreso than any other Yes album.

Wow! you are only the second person I have ever met that could track the BeachBoys and Rush in the same conversation. Although I can do this, It is not because I am a great music coniseur like you probably are, but because my best friend when I was groing up was a Brian Wilson freak. (i graduated HS in 80'). I dragged him to go see Hemispherses., He dragged me To BB conventions, and lured me into BB music somehow. I became interested in the late sixties BB music then. The day after Hemispheres, another friend dragged us to go see Jethro Tull, (Songs from the Wood , I believe. ) In the same time frame Yes was doing "Going for the One" in what they did as theatre in the round, which allowed the stage to be dead center of the area , as it spun around. Anyway Brian's stuff is monumental, for the pop/ rock world. As far as high voiced harmonies, I cant think of anything better than Brian and Carl Wilson. The thing I like about Smile is that it has that multi segmented song thing going, like you do in Hemispheres, or Close to the Edge.

[rickyrob]

QUOTE (petsounds75 @ Nov 29 2004, 10:27 PM)

Even though there's lots of Yes fans that don't really care for Tales From The Topographic Oceans (rel. 1973) I do feel that a big part of Rush's early days with Neil at the helm of lyrics and influence on the music seems like he's taken a big liking to groups like Yes, Genesis and even ELP. Up until Rush, Carl Palmer of ELP was the fastest and rudementary skilled young drummer in rock...unlike Keith Moon and Ginger Baker who struck anything within stick's reach at alarming speed...whereas Peart seemed like Bill Bruford and Carl Palmer wrapped into one happy package. I picked up the new remastered Topographic Oceans (if you like this album but want a 1000% improvment in sound and the songs played as they were initially intended- GET THE REISSUE!) and I couldn't help noticing things that obviously HAD to influence early Rush...especially on their 2112/Farewell/Hemispheres albums. Musically, Hemispheres seems almost like a carbon copy of the best parts of Topographic Oceans with more muscle and volume that only Rush could provide for such a piece such as "Oceans". What do you guys think? I clearly think that Yes had a major influence on Rush...even after Rush's sci-fi epic phase with such colorful and heavy musical substance.

I have Topographic Oceans on vinyl (I bought it about 1980 I think). I was already into Rush then but must admit I never linked them to Topographic Oceans.

 

I was a great fan of 'Epic' tracks and this is what brought me to buy Topographic Oceans - what more could you want than 4 tracks contained on 4 sides of a double LP? ...however I was a little disappointed with it. Maybe I should put it on again - for the first time in 20+ years??

[GhostGirl]

I'm a huge Yes fan (see pic of Mr. Squire below) and have seen them in concert twice in the last few years. I appreciate the dreamy quality of Jon's lyrics...kind of word pictures. Goodness knows I have no idea what THIS means:

 

Dawn of light lying between a silence and sold sources,

Chased amid fusions of wonder, in moments hardly seen forgotten,

Coloured in pastures of chance dancing leaves cast spells of challenge,

Amused but real in thought, we fled from the sea whole.

 

Ummm....okay. Tell me THAT wasn't written by an elf. I can really enjoy "Tales" but I have to be in a dreamy, far-out kinda mood. "Nous Sommes Du Soleil" is a wonderful song.

 

I can see that Neil might have been influenced a bit by the powerful sound of this Yes album, but thank goodness his approach to lyric-writing is a bit more pragmatic.

[PuppetKing2112]

Big Yes fan...in Contents Ged said that the Yes influence was big on Xanadu in particular. Tales is growing on me. I have a hard time listening to the whole thing at once, but I ask this:

 

HAS THERE EVER BEEN A BETTER SONG WRITTEN THAN "THE REVEALING SCIENCE OF GOD?"

 

 

I think not.

[GhostGirl]

Well....I don't know if it's the best song ever...but, it is wonderful!

[NeilPeartFan2112]

QUOTE (GhostGirl @ Nov 30 2004, 08:54 PM)

Well....I don't know if it's the best song ever...but, it is wonderful!

It's pretty good, not the best song every in my book though.

[Moonraker]

QUOTE (PuppetKing2112 @ Nov 30 2004, 05:26 PM)

Big Yes fan...in Contents Ged said that the Yes influence was big on Xanadu in particular. Tales is growing on me. I have a hard time listening to the whole thing at once, but I ask this: HAS THERE EVER BEEN A BETTER SONG WRITTEN THAN "THE REVEALING SCIENCE OF GOD?" I think not.

Thats where I heard the excerpt from. I knew Geddy commented on Tales somewhere. I still have yet to get this album, but before you go blowing up on me, I own The Yes Album, Fragile, Close To The Edge, and Going For The One already

[PuppetKing2112]

OK fine Moonie...I won't blow up on you for not getting Tales.

 

 

That said: I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU DON'T OWN RELAYER! YOU NEED TO GET RELAYER THIS INSTANT!!!

[Moonraker]

QUOTE (PuppetKing2112 @ Nov 30 2004, 08:37 PM)

OK fine Moonie...I won't blow up on you for not getting Tales. That said: I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU DON'T OWN RELAYER! YOU NEED TO GET RELAYER THIS INSTANT!!!

BAH

 

If its any consolation, I have Deloused in the Comatorium

[petsounds75]

Revealing Science is a great song?

 

Yeeah, maybe a little.

 

I've always been much more partial to the Remembering. That song sounds like a SERIOUS building block or reference to Hemispheres.

 

The ending part of Remembering with the building chords is just unbelieveable.

 

Someone said get Relayer immediately? Avoid Soundchaser. There's a keyboard part that seems like it was thrown in there, for what reason I don't know, that sounds like some 1970's background song to a cheap skin flick during a stripping scene.

 

You Yes folks will know what part I'm talking about. UGH! That part makes me cringe.

[Sweetmiracle]

QUOTE (petsounds75 @ Nov 29 2004, 11:45 PM)

Yes, Rush's first one does indeed sound like Zep/Who type stuff. Even with a heavy helping of Cream/Clapton. That's what Rush started out doing was songs from groups like that. Rush didn't have the big brained influence of Peart on the first one because, well, Peart wasn't on it. It was all Geddy and Alex on that first one...and you know how they are. Rock on, party, be goofy and have fun.

Although, it's interesting that on the XM radio interview (I think), Geddy said that he and Alex were moving in a more prog-rock direction and had been for a while, but John Rutsey didn't want anything to do with it, he just wanted to stick with straight-ahead blues-rock. Alex and Geddy had written part of "Anthem" and used that as a test for prospective drummers in their search....

 

Thus the direction for the band began well before Neil came aboard. Remember that many of the songs on'Rush' were a few years old, and the lyrics in some cases were written on the day of recording because Rutsey had thrown his away because he didn't like them....