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the underrated side of zeppelin


fledgehog
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Everyone rags on Zeppelin for being overrated -- but a good portion of their work (specifically almost everything post-Houses of hte Holy) is actually quite underrrated. I figured there ought to be a thread to discuss this side of them. Anyone who wants to contribute by saying "LOLZ strwy 2 hvn is teh OEWN!" might as well leave now, kthxbi.

 

My favorite zeppelin album is definately Presence. Anyone else with me here?

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QUOTE (fledgehog @ Feb 23 2007, 04:22 PM)
Everyone rags on Zeppelin for being overrated -- but a good portion of their work (specifically almost everything post-Houses of hte Holy) is actually quite underrrated. I figured there ought to be a thread to discuss this side of them. Anyone who wants to contribute by saying "LOLZ strwy 2 hvn is teh OEWN!" might as well leave now, kthxbi.

My favorite zeppelin album is definately Presence. Anyone else with me here?

Presence is my fav too. With Houses a close second.

 

Houses of the Holy is the album where they got good and deserved their tag - HotH, PG, Presence and ITTOD are all brilliant records.

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I think "Houses" is their best by far, and as one of those people who thinks the Led Zep were "important for their time but greatly overrated" I think this album really lives up to the hype. I don't have "Prescence" yet (I have the first 6 albums though) but I think "Achilles Last Stand" is Zep's best song and one of the greatest songs ever.
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QUOTE (The O' Sullivan Factor @ Feb 23 2007, 04:33 PM)
I think "Houses" is their best by far, and as one of those people who thinks the Led Zep were "important for their time but greatly overrated" I think this album really lives up to the hype. I don't have "Prescence" yet (I have the first 6 albums though) but I think "Achilles Last Stand" is Zep's best song and one of the greatest songs ever.

Get Presence!

 

It's got progressive elements thrown in, bluesy elements, warped blues (Nobody's Fault But Mine) and overall great songs.

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QUOTE (fledgehog @ Feb 23 2007, 09:22 AM)
Everyone rags on Zeppelin for being overrated --

"Everyone" seems to only refer to people on this forum. The rest of the world refers to them as one of the greatest bands ever and never say they are overrated. The ones who comment on the greatest bands of all time being overrated, are just under-knowledged. There is a reason they are in this category, because they wrote great songs.

(if it's not Rush, they are overrated according to this forum... wink.gif )

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QUOTE (fledgehog @ Feb 23 2007, 11:22 AM)
Everyone rags on Zeppelin for being overrated -- but a good portion of their work (specifically almost everything post-Houses of hte Holy) is actually quite underrrated. I figured there ought to be a thread to discuss this side of them. Anyone who wants to contribute by saying "LOLZ strwy 2 hvn is teh OEWN!" might as well leave now, kthxbi.

My favorite zeppelin album is definately Presence. Anyone else with me here?

Presence is not my favorite, but LZ is not overrated in my book. They were a fantastic band! My favs are In Through Out Door, HotH, and the MUCH underrated LZIII. I and IV are legendary. Oh f-ck, theyre all GREAT! smile.gif

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QUOTE (lerxt1990 @ Feb 23 2007, 01:52 PM)
QUOTE (fledgehog @ Feb 23 2007, 11:22 AM)
Everyone rags on Zeppelin for being overrated -- but a good portion of their work (specifically almost everything post-Houses of hte Holy) is actually quite underrrated.  I figured there ought to be a thread to discuss this side of them. Anyone who wants to contribute by saying "LOLZ strwy 2 hvn is teh OEWN!" might as well leave now, kthxbi.

My favorite zeppelin album is definately Presence.  Anyone else with me here?

Presence is not my favorite, but LZ is not overrated in my book. They were a fantastic band! My favs are In Through Out Door, HotH, and the MUCH underrated LZIII. I and IV are legendary. Oh f-ck, theyre all GREAT! smile.gif

Yes, yes and YES...

 

It took me a few listens to get into Presence, but then I loved it - although my favorite track is "Tea For One." Jimmy playing the blues? wub.gif

 

I even like In Through The Out Door. "Hot Dog" is just about one of the funniest songs I've ever heard. And "I'm Gonna Crawl" is a dark, overlooked gem.

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QUOTE (Maddy @ Feb 23 2007, 02:35 PM)
QUOTE (lerxt1990 @ Feb 23 2007, 01:52 PM)
QUOTE (fledgehog @ Feb 23 2007, 11:22 AM)
Everyone rags on Zeppelin for being overrated -- but a good portion of their work (specifically almost everything post-Houses of hte Holy) is actually quite underrrated.  I figured there ought to be a thread to discuss this side of them. Anyone who wants to contribute by saying "LOLZ strwy 2 hvn is teh OEWN!" might as well leave now, kthxbi.

My favorite zeppelin album is definately Presence.  Anyone else with me here?

Presence is not my favorite, but LZ is not overrated in my book. They were a fantastic band! My favs are In Through Out Door, HotH, and the MUCH underrated LZIII. I and IV are legendary. Oh f-ck, theyre all GREAT! smile.gif

Yes, yes and YES...

 

It took me a few listens to get into Presence, but then I loved it - although my favorite track is "Tea For One." Jimmy playing the blues? wub.gif

 

I even like In Through The Out Door. "Hot Dog" is just about one of the funniest songs I've ever heard. And "I'm Gonna Crawl" is a dark, overlooked gem.

I also love Tea For One. I think that is the most underrated LZ song. Presence is not my favorite album, though. I would have to go for a toss-up between I and III. II, IV, HOH, PG, and Presence are all close 2nds (or 3rds). I never got into In Through the Out Door.

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Presence isn't my favorite album, but it contains my favorite song - "Achilles Last Stand." 1022.gif

 

 

 

 

EDIT: And Zep is NOT over-rated. They were amazing!

Edited by GeddyRulz
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I think the criticism is not that Zeppelin is underrated, it's that they "did not give credit where credit is due." To say the least, Zep does owe a considereable debt to all those great blues artists (not to mention Jeff Beck). With that said, they are a phenomenal band. I love every album, but as for their latter stuff I've always has a soft spot for In Through the Out Door/I]. "Carouselambra" is one of my favorite Zep songs.
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QUOTE (ReRushed @ Feb 23 2007, 03:19 PM)
I think the criticism is not that Zeppelin is underrated, it's that they "did not give credit where credit is due." To say the least, Zep does owe a considereable debt to all those great blues artists (not to mention Jeff Beck). With that said, they are a phenomenal band. I love every album, but as for their latter stuff I've always has a soft spot for In Through the Out Door/I]. "Carouselambra" is one of my favorite Zep songs.

Right on! They did rip off a lot of music.

 

That said they are a great band however I must consider them greatly overrated.

 

Presence, Houses, III in that order.

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QUOTE (MrMiltonBanana @ Feb 23 2007, 01:30 PM)
I love listening to 'Box Set II" that has all the songs "not popular enough" to be on the first box set.

I've been looking for that for a while. If I find it, I'll pick it up for sure.

 

Their later stuff is very interesting. I like Carouselambra from ITTOD in particular.

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QUOTE (goose @ Feb 23 2007, 07:12 PM)
QUOTE (MrMiltonBanana @ Feb 23 2007, 01:30 PM)
I love listening to 'Box Set II" that has all the songs "not popular enough" to be on the first box set.

I've been looking for that for a while. If I find it, I'll pick it up for sure.

 

Their later stuff is very interesting. I like Carouselambra from ITTOD in particular.

Just save a few more bucks and get The Complete Studio Recordings. You won't regret it.

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Physical Graffiti is my favorite album of theirs. Honestly, I could listen to any of their albums all the way through. I remember I did a poll on here awhile back on favorite Zeppelin album (one of many groups I polled on here). Physical Graffiti and IV were neck and neck. That's kind of interesting because PG represents the "underrated" part and IV represents the "overrated" part. Thinking back, it was the overrated part that initially drew me in, and the underrated part that kept me there.

 

I confess that my favorite Zeppelin song is still Stairway. After all these years I still never change the station if it's played on the radio. My clear second favorite is Achilles Last Stand, followed by the Rain Song.

 

Those of you who picked Presence for your favorite album will be pleased to know that it's Jimmy Page's favorite album, also. (I don't know what Plant's favorite was, but his favorite song was Kashmir.)

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QUOTE (launchpad67a @ Feb 23 2007, 06:50 PM)
QUOTE (fledgehog @ Feb 23 2007, 09:22 AM)
Everyone rags on Zeppelin for being overrated --

"Everyone" seems to only refer to people on this forum. The rest of the world refers to them as one of the greatest bands ever and never say they are overrated. The ones who comment on the greatest bands of all time being overrated, are just under-knowledged. There is a reason they are in this category, because they wrote great songs.

(if it's not Rush, they are overrated according to this forum... wink.gif )

That has to be the biggest load of bullshit i've ever heard on this forum. Level with Melodic's tone rantings.

 

Made me laugh.

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QUOTE (ReRushed @ Feb 23 2007, 03:19 PM)
I think the criticism is not that Zeppelin is underrated, it's that they "did not give credit where credit is due." To say the least, Zep does owe a considereable debt to all those great blues artists (not to mention Jeff Beck). With that said, they are a phenomenal band. I love every album, but as for their latter stuff I've always has a soft spot for In Through the Out Door/I]. "Carouselambra" is one of my favorite Zep songs.

Theres a whole lot of bands that didnt give credit to their blues and rock influences smile.gif

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QUOTE (lerxt1990 @ Feb 23 2007, 07:41 PM)
QUOTE (ReRushed @ Feb 23 2007, 03:19 PM)
I think the criticism is not that Zeppelin is underrated, it's that they "did not give credit where credit is due."  To say the least, Zep does owe a considereable debt to all those great blues artists (not to mention Jeff Beck).  With that said, they are a phenomenal band.  I love every album, but as for their latter stuff I've always has a soft spot for In Through the Out Door/I].  "Carouselambra" is one of my favorite Zep songs.

Theres a whole lot of bands that didnt give credit to their blues and rock influences smile.gif

Understood. I'm not saying Led Zeppelin is the only band not to credit their influences. But the fact remains - they ripped off songs note for note and did not give credit to the rightful authors. They've even admitted to it! That said, Led Zeppelin is still one of my favorite bands.

 

Read up:

 

http://www.furious.com/perfect/jimmypage.html

 

 

Edited by ReRushed
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QUOTE (ReRushed @ Feb 23 2007, 07:45 PM)
QUOTE (lerxt1990 @ Feb 23 2007, 07:41 PM)
QUOTE (ReRushed @ Feb 23 2007, 03:19 PM)
I think the criticism is not that Zeppelin is underrated, it's that they "did not give credit where credit is due."  To say the least, Zep does owe a considereable debt to all those great blues artists (not to mention Jeff Beck).  With that said, they are a phenomenal band.  I love every album, but as for their latter stuff I've always has a soft spot for In Through the Out Door/I].  "Carouselambra" is one of my favorite Zep songs.

Theres a whole lot of bands that didnt give credit to their blues and rock influences smile.gif

Understood. I'm not saying Led Zeppelin is the only band not to credit their influences. But the fact remains - they ripped off songs note for note and did not give credit to the rightful authors. They've even admitted to it! That said, Led Zeppelin is still one of my favorite bands.

 

Read up:

 

http://www.furious.com/perfect/jimmypage.html

Absolutely agree, and I know all about that - I was agreeing with you, just saying it was done by many, even the really famous ones.

 

Do you remember the "My Sweet Lord" - "He's SO Fine" trial with George Harrison? smile.gif

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QUOTE (lerxt1990 @ Feb 23 2007, 07:51 PM)
Do you remember the "My Sweet Lord" - "He's SO Fine" trial with George Harrison? smile.gif

My least favorite song off an absolutely brilliant album! George Harrison never approached those heights again! In defense of George, he didn't even know he did it - he was found guilty of "subconscious" plagiarism! Zep knew what they were doing!

 

Anyway, trink39.gif

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There is no "underrated" Zeppelin for me...at least in Portland, our classic rock station has EVERY Zeppelin song on heavy rotation. Literally, I have never come across a Zeppelin song they haven't played like 50 times. And I have and know all of their work.

 

I do tend to prefer their more esoteric folky material to the Stairway/Whole Lotta Love/Immigrant Song type stuff, but Zeppelin gets pretty much zero play from me these days. Great music, but I've heard it all way too much, and not a lot of it holds up for me anymore.

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QUOTE (ReRushed @ Feb 23 2007, 08:03 PM)
QUOTE (lerxt1990 @ Feb 23 2007, 07:51 PM)
Do you remember the "My Sweet Lord" - "He's SO Fine" trial with George Harrison? smile.gif

My least favorite song off an absolutely brilliant album! George Harrison never approached those heights again! In defense of George, he didn't even know he did it - he was found guilty of "subconscious" plagiarism! Zep knew what they were doing!

 

Anyway, trink39.gif

 

Indeed trink39.gif

 

That was what was claimed, but even George admitted in essence that he ripped it off:

 

THE QUESTION OF LIABILITY FOR INFRINGEMENT

The suit was conducted in two phases, which makes perfectly good sense in litigation of this type. (footnote 6) It would be a waste of time for Harrison to prepare and deliver the financial information necessary to determine the amount due to Bright unless the judge found that Harrison had plagiarized, at least in part, HSF. The trial on the issue of liability was conducted on February 23-25, 1976. At that trial, the judge was called upon to make an analysis of the music of both HSF and MSL. (footnote 7) Both sides called expert witnesses to support their contentions, and Harrison himself testified about the process that occurred in writing MSL. After hearing the testimony and considering the evidence, the judge found MSL did indeed infringe upon HSF's copyright.

The Court noted that HSF incorporated two basic musical phrases, which were called "motif A" and "motif B". Motif A consisted of four repetitions of the notes "G-E-D" or "sol-mi- re"; B was "G-A-C-A-C" or "sol-la-do-la-do", and in the second use of motif B, a grace note was inserted after the second A, making the phrase "sol-la-do-la-re-do". The experts for each party agreed that this was a highly unusual pattern.

 

Harrison's own expert testified that although the individual motifs were common enough to be in the public domain, the combination here was so unique that he had never come across another piece of music that used this particular sequence, and certainly not one that inserted a grace note as described above.

 

Harrison's composition used the same motif A four times, which was then followed by motif B, but only three times, not four. Instead of a fourth repetition of motif B, there was a transitional phrase of the same approximate length. The original composition as performed by Billy Preston also contained the grace note after the second repetition of the line in motif B, but Harrison's version did not have this grace note.

 

Harrison's experts could not contest the basic findings of the Court, but did attempt to point out differences in the two songs. However, the judge found that while there may have been modest alterations to accommodate different words with a different number of syllables, the essential musical piece was not changed significantly. The experts also pointed out that Harrison's version of MSL omitted the grace note, but the judge ruled that this minor change did not change the genesis of the song as that which previously occurred in HSF.

 

With all the evidence pointing out the similarities between the two songs, the judge said it was "perfectly obvious . . . the two songs are virtually identical". The judge was convinced that neither Harrison nor Preston consciously set out to appropriate the melody of HSF for their own use, but such was not a defense.

 

Harrison conceded that he had heard HSF prior to writing MSL, and therefore, his subconscious knew the combination of sounds he put to the words of MSL would work, because they had already done so. Terming what occurred as subconscious plagiarism, the judge found that the case should be re-set for a trial on the issue of damages.

 

This ruling as to the copyright infringement was upheld on appeal with little comment. The appellate court noted that an infringement can be established when the holder of the copyright demonstrates that the second work is substantially similar to the protected work and the second composer had "access" to the first work. Harrison conceded that he had indeed heard HSF when it was popular, thus establishing the second point.

 

Harrison's main argument on appeal was that it was unsound policy to allow a finding of plagiarism based on subconscious copying, as there was no evidence that he purposely appropriated the melody of HSF for use in a composition he claimed as his own. This position was rejected by the appellate court, which pointed out that the Copyright Act did not require a showing of "intent to infringe" to support a finding of infringement.

 

http://abbeyrd.best.vwh.net/mysweet.htm

 

 

By the way, I love MSL and dont really like HSF smile.gif

Edited by lerxt1990
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