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It's obvious why Tai Shan and High Water


treeduck
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QUOTE (Presto-digitation @ Jan 3 2007, 10:00 PM)
Also...even if you call Tai Shan say the worst song on HYF, compared to the worst songs on other Rush albums (Dog Years, say...or Hand Over Fist...or You Bet Your Life, I Think I'm Going Bald, etc.) it's a damn musical classic. It is anyhow, but certainly by comparison. wink.gif At least you can't call Tai Shan a filler track. It has so much more passion (lyrically) and originality (musically) than most of what passes for Rush "filler" it's not quite fair to dismiss such a song as "slapped together nonsense."

SO THERE

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QUOTE (Presto-digitation @ Jan 3 2007, 09:56 PM)
QUOTE (treeduck @ Jan 3 2007, 03:10 PM)
QUOTE (invisibleairwaves @ Jan 3 2007, 03:09 PM)
Nope, they didn't write Tai Shan and High Water last. Force Ten was actually the last song they wrote for HYF.

Hmmmm...

 

1287.gif

This is true. Force Ten was their gratuitous "let's come up with something sponateous" to end the session.

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QUOTE (steelcaressed @ Jan 3 2007, 10:40 PM)
Lyrically, they are both quite creative. Musically...well, they are not the best effort the band has put forward. Tai Shan has no complexity to speak of, and the attempt at mood creation on High Water, while noble, falls dreadfully short.

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What Tai Shan has is texture and atmosphere....a sweet aroma that fills your nostrils. Not every Rush song can claim to be so tactile.

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High Water sounds like it could have been written in a day.

 

 

But Tai Shan was meant to make it to the album I think because of Neil's travel's in China and him actually climbing Tai Shan. I have no doubt that song was meant to be on the album.

 

In fact, I rate Tai Shan much higher than Force 10 and Time Stand Still, which to me sound great, but may have in fact been written as "extras".

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All this thread ultimately proves once again is that there is no opinion about any given Rush album, song or songs with which EVERYONE will agree. While there are a goodly few people out there (including me) who believe HYF is a great album, save for the last two songs, there will always be people to come along to disagree. Someone here even said Prime Mover (my favorite song on HYF) was one of the weakest tracks on the album. ohmy.gif

 

Just goes to show, we can't ALL agree on ANYTHING, except perhaps the most generic assessment that Rush is a great group. tongue.gif

Edited by rushgoober
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QUOTE (rushgoober @ Jan 4 2007, 08:41 PM)
All this thread ultimately proves once again is that there is no opinion about any given Rush album, song or songs with which EVERYONE will agree. While there are a goodly few people out there (including me) who believe HYF is a great album, save for the last two songs, there will always be people to come along to disagree. Someone here even said Prime Mover (my favorite song on HYF) was one of the weakest tracks on the album. ohmy.gif

Just goes to show, we can't ALL agree on ANYTHING, except perhaps the most generic assessment that Rush is a great group. tongue.gif

laugh.gif Goobs I agree new_thumbsupsmileyanim.gif yes.gif bekloppt.gif trink39.gif

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QUOTE (different strings @ Jan 4 2007, 05:54 AM)
QUOTE (rushgoober @ Jan 4 2007, 08:41 PM)
All this thread ultimately proves once again is that there is no opinion about any given Rush album, song or songs with which EVERYONE will agree.  While there are a goodly few people out there (including me) who believe HYF is a great album, save for the last two songs, there will always be people to come along to disagree.  Someone here even said Prime Mover (my favorite song on HYF) was one of the weakest tracks on the album. ohmy.gif

Just goes to show, we can't ALL agree on ANYTHING, except perhaps the most generic assessment that Rush is a great group. tongue.gif

laugh.gif Goobs I agree new_thumbsupsmileyanim.gif yes.gif bekloppt.gif trink39.gif

Yeah, and I mean it is good we disagree on things about Rush. That means that the music of Rush is great and is many things to many people.

 

2.gif

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I think the guitar work on Tai Shan is amazing.

 

Just tune everything else out on the song and listen to Alex.

 

I am sure that is not easy to do.

 

Mellow song with incredible guitar work.

 

I always loved Neil's drumming on "High Water."

 

I am in the minority.

 

I love those two songs.

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QUOTE (RUSHHEAD666 @ Jan 5 2007, 12:10 AM)
I think the guitar work on Tai Shan is amazing.

Just tune everything else out on the song and listen to Alex.

I am sure that is not easy to do.

Mellow song with incredible guitar work.

I always loved Neil's drumming on "High Water."

I am in the minority.

I love those two songs.

Yeah those Japanese-sounding chordal motifs he does are good...

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QUOTE (rushgoober @ Jan 4 2007, 05:41 AM)
All this thread ultimately proves once again is that there is no opinion about any given Rush album, song or songs with which EVERYONE will agree. While there are a goodly few people out there (including me) who believe HYF is a great album, save for the last two songs, there will always be people to come along to disagree. Someone here even said Prime Mover (my favorite song on HYF) was one of the weakest tracks on the album. ohmy.gif

Just goes to show, we can't ALL agree on ANYTHING, except perhaps the most generic assessment that Rush is a great group. tongue.gif

Aye...

 

However, EVERYONE (other than you of course) agrees you should quit posting Hasselhoff pics pronto...for your own good...

 

tongue.gif

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QUOTE (rushgoober @ Jan 3 2007, 04:50 PM)
This is from the poll on TF:

What do you think is the best song from this album?

Force Ten [ 51 ] [15.50%]
Time Stand Still [ 83 ] [25.23%]
Open Secrets [ 27 ] [8.21%]
Second Nature [ 17 ] [5.17%]
Prime Mover [ 36 ] [10.94%]
Lock and Key [ 20 ] [6.08%]
Mission [ 49 ] [14.89%]
Turn The Page [ 27 ] [8.21%]
Tai Shan [ 9 ] [2.74%]
High Water [ 10 ] [3.04%]


Tai Shan and High Water are definitely bottom of the barrel for the majority of Rush fans as far as HYF is concerned.

The poll you quote doesn't ask for a ranking of the songs, just which is best. I wouldn't put either track at the top, but they'd be far from the bottom of my list for HYF.

 

My least favorite is Lock & Key, for the record.

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QUOTE (rushgoober @ Jan 4 2007, 05:41 AM)
All this thread ultimately proves once again is that there is no opinion about any given Rush album, song or songs with which EVERYONE will agree. While there are a goodly few people out there (including me) who believe HYF is a great album, save for the last two songs, there will always be people to come along to disagree. Someone here even said Prime Mover (my favorite song on HYF) was one of the weakest tracks on the album. ohmy.gif

Just goes to show, we can't ALL agree on ANYTHING, except perhaps the most generic assessment that Rush is a great group. tongue.gif

Quoted for truth and justice. That's one of my favorite things about Rush-how there are hardly any two fans with the exact same opinions about things.

 

In my opinion, although both are near the weaker end of the CD, I still love them both, and the only reason they rank low for me is because of what they're up against-Tai Shan is...well, different, and you have to look at it a bit differently. Because, really, comparing Tai Shan to, say, Force Ten, would be like comparing Simon and Garfunkel to Led Zeppelin, really, and the fact that Rush can vary so much from soft to hard rock in just one album is truly amazing.

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QUOTE (Earthshine @ Jan 6 2007, 12:31 AM)
QUOTE (treeduck @ Jan 5 2007, 12:16 AM)
Yeah those Japanese-sounding chordal motifs he does are good...

 

They are Chinese dude! Come on! trink39.gif

I said Japanese-sounding, not actually Japanese, ie they sound Japanese to me, this is called descriptive writing just so you know...

 

Anyway they remind me a little of Eric Johnson on Tones it may have been where he got the idea from...

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QUOTE (treeduck @ Jan 6 2007, 12:36 AM)
QUOTE (Earthshine @ Jan 6 2007, 12:31 AM)
QUOTE (treeduck @ Jan 5 2007, 12:16 AM)
Yeah those Japanese-sounding chordal motifs he does are good...

 

They are Chinese dude! Come on! trink39.gif

I said Japanese-sounding, not actually Japanese, ie they sound Japanese to me, this is called descriptive writing just so you know...

 

Anyway they remind me a little of Eric Johnson on Tones it may have been where he got the idea from...

I know it is descriptive writing and totally got your description and know what you meant. smile.gif I was just messing with you mate. trink39.gif

 

I totally agree about it sounding like Eric Johnson as well. A lot like "Bristol Shore from Tones. Are you a fan of his?

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QUOTE (Earthshine @ Jan 6 2007, 12:42 AM)
QUOTE (treeduck @ Jan 6 2007, 12:36 AM)
QUOTE (Earthshine @ Jan 6 2007, 12:31 AM)
QUOTE (treeduck @ Jan 5 2007, 12:16 AM)
Yeah those Japanese-sounding chordal motifs he does are good...

 

They are Chinese dude! Come on! trink39.gif

I said Japanese-sounding, not actually Japanese, ie they sound Japanese to me, this is called descriptive writing just so you know...

 

Anyway they remind me a little of Eric Johnson on Tones it may have been where he got the idea from...

I know it is descriptive writing and totally got your description and know what you meant. smile.gif I was just messing with you mate. trink39.gif

 

I totally agree about it sounding like Eric Johnson as well. A lot like "Bristol Shore from Tones. Are you a fan of his?

Yeah I'm a big EJ fan ever since Tones came out way back in 1986 (I first heard him on the Steve Morse album "stand up" the year before) and that's the song I meant, I think there's a little more somewhere else maybe in Victory.

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QUOTE (Earthshine @ Jan 6 2007, 12:42 AM)
I know it is descriptive writing and totally got your description and know what you meant. smile.gif I was just messing with you mate. trink39.gif

Aye I thought so mate but you never know on here...

 

wink.gif laugh.gif

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QUOTE (treeduck @ Jan 3 2007, 03:07 PM)
Why are Tai Shan and High Water so much weaker than the rest of Hold your Fire? I mean they're ok, not as hideous as some people make out on here, but they are a steep drop off from the rest of HYF. So why is that? Well I think it's pretty obvious...

In 1987 albums lengths were expanding to fit in with CD capabilities for holding data. When Rush came to record Hold your Fire it must have been decided that at least 10 songs were required. Rush had been used to 8 song albums or less; the previous 3 were 8, then 7, 6, 4 and so on. The first 8 tunes on HYF are all excellent but the two "extra" tracks that they had to come up with in the same studio time as usual don't quite cut the mustard. Ok 6 months longer between records as the previous few, but then everyone was going 2 years between records by then...

So am I right or am I right?

I don't know, I actually love both of these songs. They're not my favorites from the album but I love 'em anyway.

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QUOTE (treeduck @ Jan 3 2007, 03:07 PM)

The first 8 tunes on HYF are all excellent but the two "extra" tracks that they had to come up with in the same studio time as usual don't quite cut the mustard.

[snip]

So am I right or am I right?

No. As mentioned, it's well documented that they had 9 songs ready to go when Peter Collins pushed them towards adding a 10th. So Force Ten was written last (and put together very quickly and spontaneously).

 

QUOTE (rushgoober @ Jan 3 2007, 04:50 PM)
This is from the poll on TF:

What do you think is the best song from this album?

Force Ten [ 51 ]  [15.50%]
Time Stand Still [ 83 ]  [25.23%]
Open Secrets [ 27 ]  [8.21%]
Second Nature [ 17 ]  [5.17%]
Prime Mover [ 36 ]  [10.94%]
Lock and Key [ 20 ]  [6.08%]
Mission [ 49 ]  [14.89%]
Turn The Page [ 27 ]  [8.21%]
Tai Shan [ 9 ]  [2.74%]
High Water [ 10 ]  [3.04%]


Tai Shan and  High Water are definitely bottom of the barrel for the majority of Rush fans as far as HYF is concerned.

All that proves is that fewer people thought that each of those two songs was the best track. That doesn't mean that people considered them the worst.

 

Personally, I like Open Secrets the best, followed by Force Ten, Lock N Key, and High Water. Time Stand Still is pretty good. The rest of HYF isn't worthwhile, IMO. Mission and Turn the Page each make stabs at greatness, but the nasal vocals and awkward synths ruin these songs (which is really a shame... there's some wonderful moments in these tunes). Tai Shan is mediocre. Prime Mover and Second nature are weak.

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FYI for you guys, here are excerpts from Chapter 13 of Rush: Visions by Bill Banasiewicz:

QUOTE
After a few months holiday, the band began to think about writing. Soundcheck jams were reviewed and notebooks studied. Rush had done their homework. The studio writing sessions started September 27, 1986 at Elora Sound in Ontario, with Peter Collins again in attendance. "Peter had more influence, " says Geddy, "during the writing stage of the new album. He pushed us to improve and try different ;approaches. The results of his pushing are very different versions of 'Mission' and 'Open Secrets'!"

By mid-December the band had written nine songs: 'Time Stand Still', 'Open Secrets', 'Second Nature', 'Prime Mover', 'Lock And Key', 'Mission', 'Turn The Page', 'Tai-Shan', and 'High Water', but Peter Collins wanted another. "He thought it was important to do one more song," said Geddy, "so 'Force 10' was written the last day of pre-production on December 14." Neil took some Iyrics that Pye Dubois had mailed to him and added some verses to them. With the changes completed, Neil handed Alex and Geddy the Iyrics to 'Force 10' and they both liked them immediately. A few hours later Rush had written their tenth song for the new album. 'Force 10' is the first time since 'Tom Sawyer' that someone outside of Rush has collaborated on a song. With 10 new songs ready to go, Rush enjoyed the Christmas holiday with their families.

[snip]

On February 2, Rush entered Ridge Farm Studios in the UK and an excerpt from one of Neil's letters sums up their stay.

'As to the album, there are going to be 10 new tracks on this one, but don't worry, they're not short or anything. We simply decided that since more and more people are buying cassettes and CDs, why should we be limited by the archaic time considerations of records? So we're probably going to have over 50 minutes of music on this album, which will give a cutting engineer headaches, but means much more scope for us, and of course 'good value for money' (in the English phrase) for the buyer.

'The extra 10 minutes really makes a lot of difference in our conception of the album, as it gives that much more room to explore the strange corners of the things we like to do. Thus there is yet a greater variety of music on this one, and I think it will cover a lot more areas dynamically, texturally, and stylistically.

'The title is going to be 'Hold Your Fire', as the album revolves around the theme of instincts and primal responses to life, as well as the inner drives that, well, drive us. (All privileged information, you understand.) Hugh and I have been working on some cover ideas lately, and we're planning some very different ideas for that as well. (Too early to offer any hints.)

'But it's all very exciting, and it's all moving ahead, even a little ahead of schedule (shouldn't say that really; bad luck), so everybody is feeling very positive and doing good work.

[snip]

The record opens with 'Force 10', the final song written in one day. "The fact that it is the opening song shows how strongly we feel about it. We just brainstormed the song in one day," says Alex.

'Time Stand Still' is a very personal song," says Alex, "about experience slipping away. One day you realise that suddenly time has passed. Some experiences in life are gone and it's hard to recapture those feelings."

"'Turn The Page' is the first song we recorded guitars on at Elora Sound, but we then re-did them in England," says Alex. "I used Signature guitars on this album. They are made in Vancouver and sound excellent. I think the guitar stands out more on 'Hold Your Fire'. It's more up front with the keyboards more in the background. We recorded the guitars with two Marshall stacks and two Dean Markely amps. The heads were in the control room with the speakers in the studio. We had a clean, jangley sort of sound that we called Lerxst Sound, and found ourselves going back to use it a lot on this record."

'Tai-Shan' is a personal song about Neil's climb up the sacred Chinese mountain. Legend has it that if you raise your hands to heaven on the mountain top, you will live for 100 years. 'High Water' is a song which expresses Neil's belief that we come from water, the source.

With the album recorded, final mixing began on May 7 at Studio William Tell in Paris. In June Gedd discussed the new record. "An important growth for us has been a writing outgrowth taken to the production of a song," he said. "In the old days, having to perform material live dictated the production of the songs. Now we don't worry until after the album is completed, and as a result, it's opened us up creatively production wise. Peter Collins has given us appreciation for how much further you can take a song without live performance. He's taught us not to under-produce, so we can do a song justice. It's the method we've developed and it gives us a far more open minded approach as to the recording of a song."

As we all know, they returned to a more streamlined their sound starting on their next studio album (Presto, in 1989) and returned to their edgier sound with Counterparts (in 1993).

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QUOTE (deslock @ Jan 6 2007, 08:47 AM)
Personally, I like Open Secrets the best, followed by Force Ten, Lock N Key, and High Water.  Time Stand Still is pretty good.  The rest of HYF isn't worthwhile, IMO.  Mission and Turn the Page each make stabs at greatness, but the nasal vocals and awkward synths ruin these songs (which is really a shame... there's some wonderful moments in these tunes).  Tai Shan is mediocre.  Prime Mover and Second nature are weak.

I'm not even gonna go into how many points I disagree with you on in that post. Yikes! unsure.gif

Edited by rushgoober
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