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Counting in music


Indica
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I was wondering if any ther musicians ever counted in songs when you were playing live?

 

Usually after I played songs a few times I wouldn't have to. But sometimes when I was in gigging bands and we would add new songs often when a popular song came out, we would try to learn songs right after they got popular and before they got burnt out by every band. Sometimes we would learn songs at home then rehearse them as a band on Tuesday, and rehearse them for a couple more days then play them on friday night. We did this quite often, when they were new songs that none of us heard many times I had to remember them certain ways so I wouldn't mess up changing parts when we did them live.

 

I was just wondering if other musicians ever "counted" in songs? I know I have done this sometimes in certain parts. Like for instance if a part repeated 8 times then went into another part that played 4 times, I would count the amount of times in my head so I wouldn't go into the part premature. I wasn't sure how many other people did this when they played live. It worked for me I guess. Then after playing the song a couple weeks I wouldn't have to think about it that much. In a lot of songs the vocals or drums lead me into other parts and I wouldn't have to count, but not all songs are like that.

 

My favorite part of playing live was when we played a fresh song. I couldn't imagine playing 60 shows of the same songs every show. I would be so damn bored, I don't see how bands do that.

Edited by Indica
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QUOTE (Indica @ Nov 23 2004, 02:03 AM)
I was wondering if any other musicians ever counted in songs when you were playing live?

Yes, all the time. :-) Especially, as you pointed out, when it's a new song. I actually enjoy that part of playing new songs...the point where it's new enough where you have to concentrate on what you're playing but familiar enough to be performed with some degree of confidence.

 

In college I played in a prog-rock cover band and it was one of the most enjoyable bands I've ever been in. We did songs by Genesis (pre-Abacab), King Crimson, Rush (of course), The Dregs/Steve Morse, Yes, etc. Most of any given gig or rehearsal was spent counting out alternating time signatures or, in the case of 80's era King Crimson, shifting downbeats and 17 beat phrases. Long live the music nerd!

 

 

Indica continues:

> ...we would try to learn songs right after they got popular

> and before they got burnt out by every band. Sometimes

> we would learn songs at home then rehearse them as a

> band on Tuesday, and rehearse them for a couple more

> days then play them on friday night.

 

Same here. :-) I was in this band in 10th grade and we performed "New World Man" at a Battle Of the Bands on the Friday of the week Signals was released. The drummer had been listening to WPLJ (New York City) the previous week and taped the "World Premiere" of the song. Just like you guys, we worked on it the whole week leading up to that performance. Man, that was a cool feeling pulling that song out of the hat and impressing the musicians from other high schools.

 

 

> I couldn't imagine playing 60 shows of the same songs

> every show. I would be so damn bored, I don't see how

> bands do that.

 

I guess that's when it comes down to: "Well, I could just suck it up and play this damn song *again*, or I could go back to Podunk and take that job at Smith's Hardware." ;-)

 

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QUOTE
but with drums it's just in my head. 

 

I usually just count in my head or sometimes it is just from memory...I don't usually count in, but i guess when i try a new song...yes....Oh..i play drums only! NeilFinal.gif

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Cool, I thought it was something that I do. We used to practice a lot without a singer so you almost had to count or either keep eye contact with the drummer and everyone let each other know when to change. I notice that even Geddy looks back to neil sometimes in certain parts or at the end of some songs to make it a real tight ending.
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QUOTE
Cool, I thought it was something that I do. We used to practice a lot without a singer so you almost had to count or either keep eye contact with the drummer and everyone let each other know when to change. I notice that even Geddy looks back to neil sometimes in certain parts or at the end of some songs to make it a real tight ending.

 

SOOOO TRUE!!! I find this the most noticeable on 'The Spirit of Radio' just after the intro on that riff before it goes into the reprise...I guess all great musicians have to look back once in a while!! AlexFinal.gif NeilFinal.gif GeddyFinal.gif

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Obviously the drummer counts everyone in at the beginning of the tune. But after that it should be a feel thing, especially if the song is all 4/4. And yes, everyone should count through the breaks...or just listen to the hi-hats click it through. My biggest problem with most musicians is they don't tap their foot or bounce to the music. Dancing, in a rock and roll way, on stage is probably the best way to keep time. If you feel the music, there is really no reason to count. Most changes in modern music make sense, so there's no reason to count measures until the next change.

I guess I've been playing too long to worry about this stuff. My band plays 75% covers and they are all in 4/4, so it's a no brainer for this old soul!

1e&a, 2e&a, 3e&a, 4.............

 

I should also say this, not in a bad way either....If you have to count your way through a song, then you haven't practiced that song enough, either with your band or practicing on your own. You should feel as comfortable behind your instrument on any song as sleeping in your own bed.

Just my 2 cents wink.gif

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I always count ... playing with a band, solo with my acoustic, just listening to music, even walking and running ... it is a virtual instinct ...

 

Also, I love for my bands to be tight on breaks without eye contact. That isn't always possible ... but a few bands I was in could do that and that is one of the highest levels of tightness ... one and two and ... bam.

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I don't count....but my drummer siad that I should start counting and get a little metranome...or whatever you call those things.... Right now I just listen to the song and just giver laugh.gif
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QUOTE (launchpad67a @ Nov 23 2004, 08:37 PM)
Obviously the drummer counts everyone in at the beginning of the tune. But after that it should be a feel thing, especially if the song is all 4/4. And yes, everyone should count through the breaks...or just listen to the hi-hats click it through. My biggest problem with most musicians is they don't tap their foot or bounce to the music. Dancing, in a rock and roll way, on stage is probably the best way to keep time. If you feel the music, there is really no reason to count. Most changes in modern music make sense, so there's no reason to count measures until the next change.
I guess I've been playing too long to worry about this stuff. My band plays 75% covers and they are all in 4/4, so it's a no brainer for this old soul!
1e&a, 2e&a, 3e&a, 4.............

I should also say this, not in a bad way either....If you have to count your way through a song, then you haven't practiced that song enough, either with your band or practicing on your own. You should feel as comfortable behind your instrument on any song as sleeping in your own bed.
Just my 2 cents wink.gif

I believe that's what I said in my first post. I counted because we only played the song a few times and it was songs that just came out so it wasn't something that I heard a million times. Playing new tunes is fun to me so if I have to count to get it right then that's what I have to do. The bottom line is how well the song sounds. If it sounds great then it don't matter. After a couple weeks of rehearsing then I didn't need to count. We were always known to be the local band that played songs before anyone else started playing them. People dig that stuff. By the way I have been playing for 23 years and have been in at least 20 different bands and sometimes multiple bands at the same time. At one time I was a busy busy musician. Now I just fart around in my room recording silly songs I make up and record all in one day just for fun. I have 4 cd's of me playing with drum machines and me playing all instruments. It's a hobby at this point. Theres no sense in giving up music all together just because I don't play in a working band anymore. I say, if you are in a band and you have to count until you rehearsed the song enough then so be it, as long as it sounds good then no one would ever know anyway. There are no rules in music. no.gif

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QUOTE (Indica @ Nov 23 2004, 10:12 PM)
There are no rules in music. no.gif

Your exactly right Indica! Except to keep good time....lol!

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QUOTE (launchpad67a @ Nov 23 2004, 10:53 PM)
QUOTE (Indica @ Nov 23 2004, 10:12 PM)
There are no rules in music. no.gif

Your exactly right Indica! Except to keep good time....lol!

Damn, I forgot about that rule. lol. Theres nothing worse than playing with people with bad timing. wacko.gif

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I dunno, personally I try to pick out the differnet time changes and signatures in music. I remember how excited I got when I finally figured out why it was so hard to follow Kid Gloves for the first few days, then it dawned on me, count to 5 instead of 4 doh.gif

 

There are lots of bands out there that have very interesting time signatures, a couple that pop into my mind besides Rush include Yes and Nine Inch Nails. Yes was very innovative in incorperating many different beat patterns which they do flawlessly. And NIN always throw in layer upon layer of different sounds that are all marching on thier own time signature, yet still somehow manage to tie in together.

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QUOTE (Indica @ Nov 24 2004, 01:12 AM)
QUOTE (launchpad67a @ Nov 23 2004, 10:53 PM)
QUOTE (Indica @ Nov 23 2004, 10:12 PM)
There are no rules in music. no.gif

Your exactly right Indica! Except to keep good time....lol!

Damn, I forgot about that rule. lol. Theres nothing worse than playing with people with bad timing. wacko.gif

Having a good time is the best part about music!!! yes.gif 1022.gif 1022.gif

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QUOTE (NeilPeartFan2112 @ Nov 24 2004, 11:16 AM)
QUOTE (Indica @ Nov 24 2004, 01:12 AM)
QUOTE (launchpad67a @ Nov 23 2004, 10:53 PM)
QUOTE (Indica @ Nov 23 2004, 10:12 PM)
There are no rules in music. no.gif

Your exactly right Indica! Except to keep good time....lol!

Damn, I forgot about that rule. lol. Theres nothing worse than playing with people with bad timing. wacko.gif

Having a good time is the best part about music!!! yes.gif 1022.gif 1022.gif

You got that right, if you aren't having fun then you aren't doing something right. That's when I gave up playing in a band is when it seemed like everyone was arguing more than having fun. I have more fun playing at home where no ones arguing about anything than I did the last few months that I was playing in bands. I do miss playing in front of people though, that was fun for me.

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QUOTE (Indica @ Nov 24 2004, 11:47 AM)
QUOTE (NeilPeartFan2112 @ Nov 24 2004, 11:16 AM)
QUOTE (Indica @ Nov 24 2004, 01:12 AM)
QUOTE (launchpad67a @ Nov 23 2004, 10:53 PM)
QUOTE (Indica @ Nov 23 2004, 10:12 PM)
There are no rules in music. no.gif

Your exactly right Indica! Except to keep good time....lol!

Damn, I forgot about that rule. lol. Theres nothing worse than playing with people with bad timing. wacko.gif

Having a good time is the best part about music!!! yes.gif 1022.gif 1022.gif

You got that right, if you aren't having fun then you aren't doing something right. That's when I gave up playing in a band is when it seemed like everyone was arguing more than having fun. I have more fun playing at home where no ones arguing about anything than I did the last few months that I was playing in bands. I do miss playing in front of people though, that was fun for me.

I like to play by myself because then I can do whatever I want. To me, it seems more fun that way, although it's always a good time. new_thumbsupsmileyanim.gif

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This is an interesting topic. I have played drums pretty much my whole life and taught myself other instruments along the way, with a little assistance. The only time we really counted was in school jazz, symphonic and marching bands. Mostly because there were many long rests of several measures and the only way to keep up was to count them out.

But playing in rock bands I've pretty much played by feel. The important thing is the pulse (and the consistent tempo of the pulse). Even doing odd times, once I really grasped the concept of time signatures in terms of simple versus compound meters counting kind of went away. Simple meters are beat groups based on two and compound meters are based on groups of three. In odd times such as 7/8 or 5/4 the pulse will reflect how these beats are grouped.

Take Natural Science during Hyperspace which breaks down into two 2s and a 3. Once you can understand the feel of 1-2-1-2-1-2-3 instead of counting 1-2-3-4-5-6-7, the feel takes over.

If you watch the Beatles Anthology there is a scene where George Martin is analyzing A Day In The Life. For the demo Lennon repeats the phrase "Sugar plum fairy, sugar plum fairy" rhythmically as a count in instead of 1-2-3-4. The pulse of the phrase was what he based the feel on. I always liked that.

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QUOTE (CygnusX-1Bk2 @ Nov 24 2004, 02:09 PM)
This is an interesting topic. I have played drums pretty much my whole life and taught myself other instruments along the way, with a little assistance. The only time we really counted was in school jazz, symphonic and marching bands. Mostly because there were many long rests of several measures and the only way to keep up was to count them out.
But playing in rock bands I've pretty much played by feel. The important thing is the pulse (and the consistent tempo of the pulse). Even doing odd times, once I really grasped the concept of time signatures in terms of simple versus compound meters counting kind of went away. Simple meters are beat groups based on two and compound meters are based on groups of three. In odd times such as 7/8 or 5/4 the pulse will reflect how these beats are grouped.
Take Natural Science during Hyperspace which breaks down into two 2s and a 3. Once you can understand the feel of 1-2-1-2-1-2-3 instead of counting 1-2-3-4-5-6-7, the feel takes over.
If you watch the Beatles Anthology there is a scene where George Martin is analyzing A Day In The Life. For the demo Lennon repeats the phrase "Sugar plum fairy, sugar plum fairy" rhythmically as a count in instead of 1-2-3-4. The pulse of the phrase was what he based the feel on. I always liked that.

It just changes with everyone. Some people count and some don't. For some it's easier, and for some it messes them up. I have always counted, but there are sometimes that I don't. I guess it depends on my mood or something... But yes, it is an interesting topic. yes.gif

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Right, but most of Rock and Roll is in 4/4.

Let me put it this way. Do you have to count every beer in a six pack to recognize the six beers? No. You can look at the group of six bottles or cans and see that are six without having to count them individually. You can also see the pairings of either 3 pairs of 2 or a pair of 3s. The same goes for beats in a measure. If you need to come in on the "&" of 3 you don't have to count every beat from one to three to recognize the third beat and determine the mid point between it and the fourth.

As with many things music is about paterns.

Edited by CygnusX-1Bk2
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QUOTE (CygnusX-1Bk2 @ Nov 24 2004, 04:45 PM)
Right, but most of Rock and Roll is in 4/4.
Let me put it this way. Do you have to count every beer in a six pack to recognize the six beers? No. You can look at the group of six bottles or cans and see that are six without having to count them individually. You can also see the pairings of either 3 pairs of 2 or a pair of 3s. The same goes for beats in a measure. If you need to come in on the "&" of 3 you don't have to count every beat from one to three to recognize the third beat and determine the mid point between it and the fourth.
As with many things music is about paterns.

Most rock is 4/4. Rush is an exception to that. A lot of their stuff is in other time signatures that are not very common.

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