Why was Neil so polarizing among drummers?

[Xanadoood]

I’ve noticed In a lot of tributes to Neil there are still a lot of detractors.. I can’t think of another drummer who has such a huge fanbase but also quite a few critics.. what was it about Neil that caused this? Overexposure? Prog rock hatred? Geddys vocals? Edited March 28, 2020 by Xanadoood

[1-0-0-1-0-0-1]

Moved to Rush from Making Modern Music.

[grep]

I've said this before - I feel bad that I ever commented on him in a negative way. Especially after the band ended. I had no idea what was going on. Really sorry about that - and I hope he or those near him never read a word of it. Edited March 28, 2020 by grep

[tangy]

most likely it was because he was unable to pretend a stranger is a long-awaited friend?

[JohnRogers]

I don’t know an amateur garage drummer or semi-pro bar/pub drummer that has no appreciation for Neil.

[Xanadoood]

I don’t know an amateur garage drummer or semi-pro bar/pub drummer that has no appreciation for Neil.

 

I keep reading about his inability to “ swing” .. I honestly could give a shit.. I love his playing in rush but a lot of drummers seem to have an issue with it

[NinjaRider]

Good question.As a big race fan,it's the same with top drivers and riders in the racing I watch.Ayrton Senna,Michael Schumacher,Valentino Rossi...

Top of their game.Huge fan base,but plenty of haters too.

[Rush Didact]

He was a phenomenal talent. Even his detractors acknowledge that.

 

The reason he irritates so many is because of the way he played: the drums are meant to be listened to, they don't just sit unobtrusively in the background and groove away. Neil's parts were compositions.

 

That means you're never going to get something as direct as a Tom Petty song from Rush, a performance as spontaneous as the Dead, or whatever it is that makes the Ramones the Ramones.

 

To some ears, that sounds like overplaying and rigidity. To others it sounds like transcendent musicianship.

[JohnRogers]

I don’t know an amateur garage drummer or semi-pro bar/pub drummer that has no appreciation for Neil.

 

I keep reading about his inability to “ swing” .. I honestly could give a shit.. I love his playing in rush but a lot of drummers seem to have an issue with it

Right, we’ve all heard that. Yet we’ve seen Neil pay tribute to Buddy Rich. To swing must be very subjective. No swing in La Villa Stangiato?

Edited March 28, 2020 by JohnRogers

[edhunter]

Neil had unbelievable chops, which everyone can respect. But he was severely groove deficient. Listen to his versions of the debut album songs. They became choppy.

 

Often, the groove is in the places you don't play. Listen to a drummer like Phil Rudd on Back in Black, or Linus and Lucy from A Charlie Brown Christmas. The drums completely power those songs in a way that Neil never really did.

[tangy]

If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music which he hears, however measured or far away.

 

as usual thoreau says it best.............

Edited March 28, 2020 by tangy

[J2112YYZ]

I can't recall much criticism about his playing in the music world. He gets universal love for his skills from what I can tell.

[Xanadoood]

I can't recall much criticism about his playing in the music world. He gets universal love for his skills from what I can tell.

 

No doubt. But much like an eddie Van Halen, he was hugely influential to a certain generation but gets a lot of shit at the same time

[Entre_Perpetuo]

Neil had unbelievable chops, which everyone can respect. But he was severely groove deficient. Listen to his versions of the debut album songs. They became choppy.

 

Often, the groove is in the places you don't play. Listen to a drummer like Phil Rudd on Back in Black, or Linus and Lucy from A Charlie Brown Christmas. The drums completely power those songs in a way that Neil never really did.

 

With this sentiment I will always disagree. Maybe Neil couldn't play bebop, but there's nothing I've heard from him lacking in groove. The way I hear it, Neil leaves plenty of spaces in his playing, they're just very small and precise. Seriously though, someone above mentioned La Villa, and to me there are few things that have a better sense of groove than that piece.

[78jazz]

Neil had unbelievable chops, which everyone can respect. But he was severely groove deficient. Listen to his versions of the debut album songs. They became choppy.

 

Often, the groove is in the places you don't play. Listen to a drummer like Phil Rudd on Back in Black, or Linus and Lucy from A Charlie Brown Christmas. The drums completely power those songs in a way that Neil never really did.

 

This is why I didn't like his drumming on What You're Doing.

 

Like others have stated, he was an excellent composer, but a terrible improviser. The result was like a more rigid Phil Collins. Collins could build but still improvise. With Neil's technical chops, I was surprised that he never figured that out. He should have been able to.

 

He liked having a road map. I can respect that. But from a listening standpoint, it was a bit inflexible and predictable.

[Xanadoood]

Neil had unbelievable chops, which everyone can respect. But he was severely groove deficient. Listen to his versions of the debut album songs. They became choppy.

 

Often, the groove is in the places you don't play. Listen to a drummer like Phil Rudd on Back in Black, or Linus and Lucy from A Charlie Brown Christmas. The drums completely power those songs in a way that Neil never really did.

 

This is why I didn't like his drumming on What You're Doing.

 

Like others have stated, he was an excellent composer, but a terrible improviser. The result was like a more rigid Phil Collins. Collins could build but still improvise. With Neil's technical chops, I was surprised that he never figured that out. He should have been able to.

 

He liked having a road map. I can respect that. But from a listening standpoint, it was a bit inflexible and predictable.

 

I get that. But I also enjoyed listening to the parts Neil came up with far more than than Phil Collins.. with all due respect to Phil. I think improvising is a bit overrated and can sound like shit a lot of the time

[treeduck]

I’ve noticed In a lot of tributes to Neil there are still a lot of detractors.. I can’t think of another drummer who has such a huge fanbase but also quite a few critics.. what was it about Neil that caused this? Overexposure? Prog rock hatred? Geddys vocals?

Who are the main detractors?

[Lorraine]

He was a phenomenal drummer, but no one is obliged to like the person.

 

Sting is very talented, but he's an asshole.

 

Roger Daltry has a great voice, but he's a jerk.

 

Neil Schon is a good guitarist, but he's another jerk.

 

Glenn Frey was a talented person, but he was obnoxious.

 

So is his bandmate Don Henley

Edited March 28, 2020 by Lorraine

[treeduck]

I can't recall much criticism about his playing in the music world. He gets universal love for his skills from what I can tell.

Off topic, how do you feel about the 2001 Judas Priest album Demolition? I'm expecting you to say it's the worst Priest album of all times, it is for me. If this is the case who's fault is it? Ripper Owens?

[Entre_Perpetuo]

He was a phenomenal drummer, but no one is obliged to like the person.

 

Sting is very talented, but he's an asshole.

 

Roger Daltry has a great voice, but he's a jerk.

 

Neil Schon is a good guitarist, but he's another jerk.

 

Glenn Frey was a talented person, but he was obnoxious.

 

So is his bandmate Don Henley

 

I don't recall ever hearing Daltrey was a jerk, or at least he's seemed very nice nowadays to me.

[treeduck]

He was a phenomenal drummer, but no one is obliged to like the person.

 

Sting is very talented, but he's an asshole.

 

Roger Daltry has a great voice, but he's a jerk.

 

Neil Schon is a good guitarist, but he's another jerk.

 

Glenn Frey was a talented person, but he was obnoxious.

 

So is his bandmate Don Henley

Let's make a band out of them you've got drums, bass/vocals, guitar, rhythm guitar/vocals and lead vocals.

 

We'll call them The Knobheads!

[Entre_Perpetuo]

Neil had unbelievable chops, which everyone can respect. But he was severely groove deficient. Listen to his versions of the debut album songs. They became choppy.

 

Often, the groove is in the places you don't play. Listen to a drummer like Phil Rudd on Back in Black, or Linus and Lucy from A Charlie Brown Christmas. The drums completely power those songs in a way that Neil never really did.

 

This is why I didn't like his drumming on What You're Doing.

 

Like others have stated, he was an excellent composer, but a terrible improviser. The result was like a more rigid Phil Collins. Collins could build but still improvise. With Neil's technical chops, I was surprised that he never figured that out. He should have been able to.

 

He liked having a road map. I can respect that. But from a listening standpoint, it was a bit inflexible and predictable.

 

I get that. But I also enjoyed listening to the parts Neil came up with far more than than Phil Collins.. with all due respect to Phil. I think improvising is a bit overrated and can sound like shit a lot of the time

 

As a very amateur jazz player, I love improv and I'm of the mind that if it sounds bad then it's more the player's fault than any fault of improvising in general. I'm also of the mind that you have to be able to improvise in order to write. Perhaps not in a sustained manner or in public, but you do have to generate your own ideas somehow. Seeing how amazing Neil was at composing drum parts, I honestly doubt he would've been half bad at improv if he'd really tried it out. I think that was one area Rush never really explored. Of course there must have been some improvisation in his drum solos each night (no two were exactly the same were they?), so perhaps that's all the improv Neil cared to do.

 

\\

[78jazz]

Neil had unbelievable chops, which everyone can respect. But he was severely groove deficient. Listen to his versions of the debut album songs. They became choppy.

 

Often, the groove is in the places you don't play. Listen to a drummer like Phil Rudd on Back in Black, or Linus and Lucy from A Charlie Brown Christmas. The drums completely power those songs in a way that Neil never really did.

 

This is why I didn't like his drumming on What You're Doing.

 

Like others have stated, he was an excellent composer, but a terrible improviser. The result was like a more rigid Phil Collins. Collins could build but still improvise. With Neil's technical chops, I was surprised that he never figured that out. He should have been able to.

 

He liked having a road map. I can respect that. But from a listening standpoint, it was a bit inflexible and predictable.

 

I get that. But I also enjoyed listening to the parts Neil came up with far more than than Phil Collins.. with all due respect to Phil. I think improvising is a bit overrated and can sound like shit a lot of the time

 

I think some drummers are good at improvising and some are not. IMHO Neil tried this on the last few Rush tours and I think in his case, the results were more miss than hit. He tried at least, and good for him for trying to get out of his comfort zone.

 

Edit: Entre, I would have addressed your points, but I think my statement above would also suffice as a response to your post. (In the sense that to my ears, Neil tried to be a bit more improvisational on the last few Rush tours. There were moments when it did work that it was excellent.)

Edited March 28, 2020 by 78jazz

[Fridge]

I've heard of this before, and there was some truth to it before the 90s, but Neil made a significant improvement in his ability to swing and drum organically when he studied with Freddie Gruber...his work is a lot more fluid from T4E onwards.

[Three Eyes]

Thank god Neil couldn't groove. Had he been able to, Rush would have disbanded by 1978 with their legacy relegated to the discount bins of history. Being the greatest drum composer in all of rock wasn't enough, I guess. People also need him to have groove. lol. I've seen kid drummers on YouTube with groove for days, on a level of any pro drummer, but those same kids and pro drummers couldn't compose a 2112 or a Tom Sawyer in a 100 lifetimes. Edited March 28, 2020 by Three Eyes