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Why did 70s prog rock bands turn to new wave in the 80s as a sound change?


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#41 tangy

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Posted 06 March 2018 - 09:23 PM

View Postcustom55, on 06 March 2018 - 08:35 PM, said:

OK... I'm  :codger:

I prefer YES 70's music  - Yes Album, Fragile, CTTE, Tales, Gates and their 70's solo albums ( Olias Of Sunhillow, Fish Out of Water, Six Wives ) are all incredible.   I did like Big Generator though.

I've seen all versions of YES in concert many times from the 70's until last year with ARW.   YES live in the 70's cannot be beat.   Just watch YESSONGS.




Just watch yessongs is right. Its free on amazon prime and its on youtube too.

Lately i cant get enough. The performance of ctte is as good as it gets imo.

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#42 goose

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Posted 06 March 2018 - 09:29 PM

View PostEntre_Perpetuo, on 06 March 2018 - 03:31 PM, said:

View Postbluefox4000, on 06 March 2018 - 02:50 PM, said:

View PostRick N. Backer, on 06 March 2018 - 02:27 PM, said:

One thing I love about this place is how much it reinvigorates my love of music.  Right now I'm listening to Abacab.

Just for Mithrandir I might even give Trick of the Tail a listen for the 4 pm hour.  :)

Trick is my fav Genesis record.  Abacab is a beast as well.

Phil era was FANTASTIC I don't care, lol

Mick

Trick > Selling

let the games begin. :P
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#43 bluefox4000

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Posted 06 March 2018 - 09:58 PM

I never thought selling Was that hot of a record.

I mean you have Firth and Cinema Show....ok got me there but the rest.  Never Liked Wardrobe all that much. HATE Battle of Epping Forrest. Moonlight Knight is OK.

5/10 at BEST for me.

Mick

#44 fraroc

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Posted 06 March 2018 - 11:25 PM

One of the things I'm still wondering is that in the 80s, there was more than one popular genre of rock music. There was arena rock, the beginnings of power metal, thrash metal....if the goal at the end was relevance, there was clearly more than one path.....but in the end, they all chose to emulate the Flock Of Seagulls, Frankie Goes To Hollywood, Kraftwerk and Gary Numan like sound.

#45 bluefox4000

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Posted 06 March 2018 - 11:35 PM

View Postfraroc, on 06 March 2018 - 11:25 PM, said:

One of the things I'm still wondering is that in the 80s, there was more than one popular genre of rock music. There was arena rock, the beginnings of power metal, thrash metal....if the goal at the end was relevance, there was clearly more than one path.....but in the end, they all chose to emulate the Flock Of Seagulls, Frankie Goes To Hollywood, Kraftwerk and Gary Numan like sound.

i don't think i could stomach thrash Genesis honestly.

Mick

#46 Entre_Perpetuo

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 12:32 AM

View Postbluefox4000, on 06 March 2018 - 09:58 PM, said:

I never thought selling Was that hot of a record.

I mean you have Firth and Cinema Show....ok got me there but the rest.  Never Liked Wardrobe all that much. HATE Battle of Epping Forrest. Moonlight Knight is OK.

5/10 at BEST for me.

Mick

Firth and Cinema are two of my favs from it as well, but actually I think my most fav from Selling has to be Moonlit Knight, and it's reprise at the end of Cinema Show (I read somewhere they had originally considered doing Knight into Cinema into Aisle all as one piece, but they were afraid it would come off as a lesser Supper's Ready so they broke them up and bookended the album with them). But yeah, the rest is kinda slimmer pickings than I'd like.

Wardrobe gets old pretty fast, and I didn't like it THAT much at first anyway. More Fool Me is fine to my ears, but it's really creates a break in the album that lasts longer than it needs to, even if it's a better song than those little in-between tracks on Nursery Cryme. Tony said of Epping Forrest that he had written and recorded the music and was really proud of it, and then Peter comes in and just slathers the thing with lyrics and sings on top of all the other business that goes on and it annoyed the heck out of Tony because apparently Gabriel did that a lot (though one of the times he did it it became the climax of Apocalypse in 9/8, so it wasn't always bad). More or less I agree with Tony. The thing is 11 minutes long and kicks off the second side of the record. If you don't love this song, you're probably not gonna love the record, if only for the sheer runtime of it. And unquestionably it doesn't deliver for everyone. I'm sure it was fun live when the band had a bit more control over the business of it all, and it is a fun set of lyrics to read, and everyone's giving a great performance, especially Gabriel with all his voices, but with all of that said the band just isn't playing WITH each other as much as AT each other, and this is one of those times where even a non-music aficionado can tell there's just too much going on at once for too long.

I have a soft spot for After The Ordeal, if only for the title even. I mean, with where it's placed on the album, hehe, true dat. I hear Tony hates it though, not sure he ever really liked Steve tbh.

#47 Entre_Perpetuo

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 12:35 AM

View Postbluefox4000, on 06 March 2018 - 11:35 PM, said:

View Postfraroc, on 06 March 2018 - 11:25 PM, said:

One of the things I'm still wondering is that in the 80s, there was more than one popular genre of rock music. There was arena rock, the beginnings of power metal, thrash metal....if the goal at the end was relevance, there was clearly more than one path.....but in the end, they all chose to emulate the Flock Of Seagulls, Frankie Goes To Hollywood, Kraftwerk and Gary Numan like sound.

i don't think i could stomach thrash Genesis honestly.

Mick

In order to play thrash...they'd have to fire Tony, Mike would have to go back to his Get 'Em Out By Friday style of playing, Phil would have to step away from the mic, and they'd have to hire a new singer and guitarist...

so really, it wouldn't even be Genesis.

#48 Entre_Perpetuo

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 12:59 AM

View Postfraroc, on 06 March 2018 - 11:25 PM, said:

One of the things I'm still wondering is that in the 80s, there was more than one popular genre of rock music. There was arena rock, the beginnings of power metal, thrash metal....if the goal at the end was relevance, there was clearly more than one path.....but in the end, they all chose to emulate the Flock Of Seagulls, Frankie Goes To Hollywood, Kraftwerk and Gary Numan like sound.

I mean, Asia did arena rock pretty much, and pretty well for a little bit. Not to mention the original woodwind player for KC ended up playing in Foreigner, Journey, which had started as a prog band, hired Steve Perry and became Journey. Styx had been prog and tried to carry in into the 80s a bit with arena rocking concept albums that had a couple new wave touches for the times. Heck, I'm pretty sure though Boston was never a prog band that Tom Sholz took a lot of inspiration from bands like Yes for their majestic sounds and atmospherics in order to create AOR (which informs a lot of the arena rock you speak of). So there were definitely a decent amount of prog musicians who chose to pursue arena rock. Let's not forget Queen was once a pretty proggy group, not to mention Pink Floyd turned prog rock into arena rock with The Wall, Supertramp's turn-of-the-decade endeavors owed more to the Beatles and AOR than new wave, and I'm pretty sure 90125 is closer to Journey than Talking Heads. Owner Of A Lonely Heart? That riff was tailor-made for stadiums. Also, prog bands were very unlikely to start playing a genre seemingly more concerned with power and heaviness and speed than musicality or complexity (or catchiness, beneath even the likes of Gentle Giant and Van Der Graaf Generator lie bands with a real penchant for ear worm melodies). i.e. There was no way that Asia's debut was going to be a NWOBHM record, or that 90125 was going to be a thrash record. Those genres weren't ever in line with the musicians' styles and tastes

I think all in all though, the end goal wasn't "relevance" as you say. Certainly that was a large enough consideration when it came to albums like Asia's debut, 90125, Big Generator, Genesis s/t and Invisible Touch, but also I think most of the old prog bands and dispersed musicians were really just concerned with making music that they liked to hear and enjoyed playing. This also explains why KC didn't return as a heavy metal band. Fripp wasn't interested in Maiden or Priest or Motorhead. He was interested in Talking Heads, David Bowie, that sort of stuff. New wave, when it came out, was probably seen as a lot more musically experimental and challenging than heavy metal. Being prog musicians, if they were going to try new styles, they were going to naturally be drawn to the most musically challenging and experimental stuff. In their minds, they probably saw the new wave as a kind of close relative of prog, certainly closer than Van Halen and Def Leppard. The only band with decent prog cred that really might've done something more in line with the NWOBHM or any of the metal underground was Rush, as they'd been one of the heaviest bands of the 70s and had touched on metal once or twice. But we all know they just weren't as interested in that kind of sound as they were in new wave. They were always more progressively minded than metal minded, and that showed when the opportunity came to choose the jazzier rhythms and musical complexities of new wave or the more powerful riffs and searing solos of metal.

#49 Segue Myles

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 11:03 AM

View Postbluefox4000, on 06 March 2018 - 12:56 PM, said:

I'm gonna say it.  I really don't like 90125.  it comes across as Yes trying to be current and just failing.  The pop sound wasn't a good look on yes....and to suggest it's their best album lowkey kinda hurts me, lol

Mick

I don't hate it but its not a patch on what Rush was doing at the time.

#50 bluefox4000

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 11:11 AM

View PostSegue Myles, on 07 March 2018 - 11:03 AM, said:

View Postbluefox4000, on 06 March 2018 - 12:56 PM, said:

I'm gonna say it.  I really don't like 90125.  it comes across as Yes trying to be current and just failing.  The pop sound wasn't a good look on yes....and to suggest it's their best album lowkey kinda hurts me, lol

Mick

I don't hate it but its not a patch on what Rush was doing at the time.

Agreed.  as i said some bands pulled it off more than others.

i also think Rush had nothing on Genesis in that era.

Mick

#51 The K Man

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Posted 08 March 2018 - 10:28 PM

Selling England.... is great on the strength alone of Dancing..., Firth of Fifth and Cinema Show, but I would agree that the rest ranges from good to just okay.  I actually think the Lamb is the better overall record, and A Trick of the Tail is probably their most stunningly consistent record, but as individual songs go, they never topped the Big 3 of Supper's Ready, Firth of Fifth and Cinema Show.

#52 Entre_Perpetuo

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Posted 09 March 2018 - 12:39 AM

View PostThe K Man, on 08 March 2018 - 10:28 PM, said:

Selling England.... is great on the strength alone of Dancing..., Firth of Fifth and Cinema Show, but I would agree that the rest ranges from good to just okay.  I actually think the Lamb is the better overall record, and A Trick of the Tail is probably their most stunningly consistent record, but as individual songs go, they never topped the Big 3 of Supper's Ready, Firth of Fifth and Cinema Show.

I still need to hear Lamb, but yeah I agree. I'd take Firth, Cinema Show, and Dancing over most individual cuts on Trick (maybe Squonk, Volcano, and Ripples aside, it's pretty close there), but then I'd take Mad Man Moon, Entangled, RAB, Los Endos, and heck, maybe even the title track on Trick over most of the rest of Selling, especially Epping Forrest.

And Supper's Ready is the greatest thing they ever did, and one of the greatest songs of all time, and possibly second only to the immovable Bohemian Rhapsody in my all-time favorite songs.

#53 bluefox4000

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Posted 09 March 2018 - 11:55 AM

View PostEntre_Perpetuo, on 09 March 2018 - 12:39 AM, said:

View PostThe K Man, on 08 March 2018 - 10:28 PM, said:

Selling England.... is great on the strength alone of Dancing..., Firth of Fifth and Cinema Show, but I would agree that the rest ranges from good to just okay.  I actually think the Lamb is the better overall record, and A Trick of the Tail is probably their most stunningly consistent record, but as individual songs go, they never topped the Big 3 of Supper's Ready, Firth of Fifth and Cinema Show.

I still need to hear Lamb, but yeah I agree. I'd take Firth, Cinema Show, and Dancing over most individual cuts on Trick (maybe Squonk, Volcano, and Ripples aside, it's pretty close there), but then I'd take Mad Man Moon, Entangled, RAB, Los Endos, and heck, maybe even the title track on Trick over most of the rest of Selling, especially Epping Forrest.

And Supper's Ready is the greatest thing they ever did, and one of the greatest songs of all time, and possibly second only to the immovable Bohemian Rhapsody in my all-time favorite songs.

Supper's Ready is my fav prog song ever.  Not a Gabriel era guy......but major props to them.

Mick

#54 RushFanForever

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Posted 10 March 2018 - 10:13 AM

Not all bands can be AC/DC and survive musically by recording the same type of songs/albums throughout their career.

#55 Tony R

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Posted 10 March 2018 - 10:59 AM

View PostRushFanForever, on 10 March 2018 - 10:13 AM, said:

Not all bands can be AC/DC and survive musically by recording the same type of songs/albums throughout their career.

I agree. Conventional wisdom suggests they should have floundered long ago. British bands Motörhead and Status Quo had a similar philosophy and they prospered too. The exceptions that prove the rule?


#56 Segue Myles

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Posted 10 March 2018 - 11:12 AM

View PostTony R, on 10 March 2018 - 10:59 AM, said:

View PostRushFanForever, on 10 March 2018 - 10:13 AM, said:

Not all bands can be AC/DC and survive musically by recording the same type of songs/albums throughout their career.

I agree. Conventional wisdom suggests they should have floundered long ago. British bands Motörhead and Status Quo had a similar philosophy and they prospered too. The exceptions that prove the rule?

Tom Petty too.

If the band or artist write great songs, and continue to be inspired, a force change of sound is unnecessary.

#57 bluefox4000

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Posted 10 March 2018 - 11:18 AM

View PostSegue Myles, on 10 March 2018 - 11:12 AM, said:

View PostTony R, on 10 March 2018 - 10:59 AM, said:

View PostRushFanForever, on 10 March 2018 - 10:13 AM, said:

Not all bands can be AC/DC and survive musically by recording the same type of songs/albums throughout their career.

I agree. Conventional wisdom suggests they should have floundered long ago. British bands Motörhead and Status Quo had a similar philosophy and they prospered too. The exceptions that prove the rule?

Tom Petty too.

If the band or artist write great songs, and continue to be inspired, a force change of sound is unnecessary.

yea.......unless album sales are REALLY tanking.

some artists are all but forced too.

but i got the gist.

Mick

#58 New_World_Man

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Posted 10 March 2018 - 12:42 PM

Maybe Jethro Tull did(not overly familiar with that part of their history though) and King Crimson sounded similar to the Talking Heads to some degree but other then that no prog bands I can think of sounded new wavish. I wouldn't even categorize Rush's eighties albums as new wave sounding or at least not full blown new wave. The influences were there but I wouldn't put them in that same category as most new wave bands.

#59 The K Man

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 09:45 PM

View Postbluefox4000, on 09 March 2018 - 11:55 AM, said:

View PostEntre_Perpetuo, on 09 March 2018 - 12:39 AM, said:

View PostThe K Man, on 08 March 2018 - 10:28 PM, said:

Selling England.... is great on the strength alone of Dancing..., Firth of Fifth and Cinema Show, but I would agree that the rest ranges from good to just okay.  I actually think the Lamb is the better overall record, and A Trick of the Tail is probably their most stunningly consistent record, but as individual songs go, they never topped the Big 3 of Supper's Ready, Firth of Fifth and Cinema Show.

I still need to hear Lamb, but yeah I agree. I'd take Firth, Cinema Show, and Dancing over most individual cuts on Trick (maybe Squonk, Volcano, and Ripples aside, it's pretty close there), but then I'd take Mad Man Moon, Entangled, RAB, Los Endos, and heck, maybe even the title track on Trick over most of the rest of Selling, especially Epping Forrest.

And Supper's Ready is the greatest thing they ever did, and one of the greatest songs of all time, and possibly second only to the immovable Bohemian Rhapsody in my all-time favorite songs.

Supper's Ready is my fav prog song ever.  Not a Gabriel era guy......but major props to them.

Mick

Supper's Ready is definitely in my top 3 album-side prog epics of the 70's (along with 2112 and Gates of Delirium).

Quite a few modern "album-side" epics would be up there as well.

#60 RushFanForever

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 05:54 AM

View PostSegue Myles, on 10 March 2018 - 11:12 AM, said:


Tom Petty too.

If the band or artist write great songs, and continue to be inspired, a force change of sound is unnecessary.

That's not true about Tom Petty. He expanded his musical vocabulary with incorporating strings in 'It's Good To Be King' and a horn section with background singers on Southern Accents. As well, he played in the 'Traveling Wilbury's'.




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