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Gibson considering bankruptcy


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#21 thirteen

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Posted 27 February 2018 - 06:35 PM

I've never owned a Gibson. Too expensive for my pauper guitarist tastes.
A good mate of mine had a 57 Gold Top Reissue. Absolutely drool worthy.
Cost $$$$$. Too bad the neck binding left the factory faulty, and the high e string would frequently get caught under it.
Major PITA.

In comparison, my lowly Squier Vintage modified 70's strat, costing less than 10% the price of the Les Paul, faultless.

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#22 Del_Duio

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Posted 28 February 2018 - 08:51 AM

It's funny but as somebody who's played basses and etc for 25 years I've never dropped thousands on a single instrument and never will. To me, and especially now, there are way too many great instruments that are affordable vs. super expensive jobs. Case in point: I bought a Musicman Ray34 bass for approx. $700 total and it sounds (to me) just like the Stingray which is more than double that price. Quality too.  And some of these not-so super old guitars that people want $10,000 for?  Well, I'm not one to immediately get a boner over anything with the "vintage" tag- I mean hell, my crappy old orange BOSS distortion pedal would probably qualify as vintage now and sell for tons hahaha.

Edited by Del_Duio, 28 February 2018 - 08:52 AM.


#23 stoopid

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Posted 28 February 2018 - 09:25 AM

I think pros can truly tell the difference between a $2500 guitar and a $500 comparable.  That means, it's likely anyone who is reading this can't tell the difference.

I'm hoping Gibson cans their CEO and gets back to making good, affordable guitars as their core business model.  I have a newer model Les Paul special and while it plays great for me, I'm hardly good enough to notice where its failings might be.  It was also only around $550, which to me for a guitar of the caliber it seems to be, is a good price.  I bought it almost entirely on Gibson's reputation and some experience in the past with their 6 string electrics.

It took me 6 months to pay it off with a no interest deal.  I'm sure there's people with 100 times that much sitting idle in their bank account who would think nothing of spending thousands on a musical instrument they make zero money on and only occasionally play.  There's certainly some economics in this issue, who Gibson ultimately needs to tailor their business to in order to survive.  Bank rolled hobbyists?  Professionals?  I'd think this is a relatively small demographic, but maybe they represent the largest portion of the remaining guitar purchasing crowd.  Again I'm hoping for my own selfish reasons Gibson is looking to keep people like me interested in their products, but maybe that's not the path forward for them.

Edited by stoopid, 28 February 2018 - 09:35 AM.


#24 HemiBeers

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Posted 28 February 2018 - 04:35 PM

View Poststoopid, on 28 February 2018 - 09:25 AM, said:

I think pros can truly tell the difference between a $2500 guitar and a $500 comparable.  That means, it's likely anyone who is reading this can't tell the difference.

I'm hoping Gibson cans their CEO and gets back to making good, affordable guitars as their core business model.  I have a newer model Les Paul special and while it plays great for me, I'm hardly good enough to notice where its failings might be.  It was also only around $550, which to me for a guitar of the caliber it seems to be, is a good price.  I bought it almost entirely on Gibson's reputation and some experience in the past with their 6 string electrics.

It took me 6 months to pay it off with a no interest deal.  I'm sure there's people with 100 times that much sitting idle in their bank account who would think nothing of spending thousands on a musical instrument they make zero money on and only occasionally play.  There's certainly some economics in this issue, who Gibson ultimately needs to tailor their business to in order to survive.  Bank rolled hobbyists?  Professionals?  I'd think this is a relatively small demographic, but maybe they represent the largest portion of the remaining guitar purchasing crowd.  Again I'm hoping for my own selfish reasons Gibson is looking to keep people like me interested in their products, but maybe that's not the path forward for them.
Gibson is contributing to their own demise by the fact that their vintage instruments are better than their new instruments (for the most part). They don't get paid from the vintage market.

#25 RUSHHEAD666

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Posted 28 February 2018 - 10:11 PM

View Postgoose, on 27 February 2018 - 07:44 AM, said:

View PostRUSHHEAD666, on 25 February 2018 - 10:29 PM, said:

View Post1-0-0-1-0-0-1, on 19 February 2018 - 08:25 AM, said:

If Gibson wants to survive, they could stop trying to re-invent the guitar. Enough with the funky paint jobs and the robot tuners and the reverse body shapes. And those new Modern Double Cuts which cost the same as a PRS and aren't half as good. Stop dumping all that R&D money into guitars that nobody wants. Just make Les Pauls and SGs and the other classic instruments and make them affordable.

This is sad news!  As I am a drummer I do enjoyed collecting guitars!  Mostly the lower end musician signature models.


Drummers are known for collecting models.  Just not usually guitars!

My model and I grew apart.  Now I'm in love with guitars.

#26 HemiBeers

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Posted 01 March 2018 - 08:22 AM

I dropped some references to Heritage in the thread, now the latest news. The new owners fired 12 production workers so they can replace them with CNC machines. The new management company is a local real estate vulture capitalist who is just chasing another buck. I guess they want to send Heritage down the shitter with Gibson. Bastards.

http://www.mlive.com...guitar_sou.html

Edited by HemiBeers, 01 March 2018 - 08:23 AM.


#27 Del_Duio

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Posted 06 March 2018 - 11:49 AM

Sort of related, but does anyone else like the SG over the Les Paul?

#28 munk

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Posted 17 March 2018 - 09:07 PM

Several years ago Gibson was raided by the Justice Dept.  They seized 'exotic woods' and other assets totaling millions of dollars, and locked them out of business for an extended time.
The nation which sold Gibson the, 'exotic woods' communicated very clearly and with documentation that neither they nor Gibson had violated any protection act. Other American guitar manufacturers used the same woods as Gibson but were not interceded by Justice.  It is said a CEO of Gibson donated to a Republican candidate, and this action was deliberate retaliation.

Gibson has not recovered from this event.

Are their guitars too expensive?   Is their business model keyed for today?  You guys know better than I about that.  It doesn't take much to kill a company.  Sales aren't equal to profit, and most manufacturers have a small profit margin.  

Hope I haven't violated anything nor offended.  I did not see this addressed in this thread and thought it germane.  Not to bring up politics, but to answer the implied question; 'what happened to Gibson?'

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#29 edhunter

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Posted 17 March 2018 - 09:10 PM

So Obama killed Gibson....

#30 munk

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Posted 17 March 2018 - 09:14 PM

Read about it.

I just want my electric light bulbs back....



munk

#31 edhunter

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Posted 17 March 2018 - 09:20 PM

View Postmunk, on 17 March 2018 - 09:14 PM, said:

Read about it.

I just want my electric light bulbs back....



munk

Oh I believe you. Obama use the government as a weapon against a lot of conservative groups.

#32 munk

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Posted 17 March 2018 - 09:32 PM

I'm not getting into that.  It's important, I thought, to know Gibson took an enormous hit financially, by intervention of the Federal Government, right or wrong, regardless of how one feels about Gibson or the Govt, OK?  It does not matter.  It was a huge blow.  

Whatever their market model was, they apparently never recovered from the loss.

#33 HemiBeers

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Posted 18 March 2018 - 08:44 AM

View Postmunk, on 17 March 2018 - 09:32 PM, said:

I'm not getting into that.  It's important, I thought, to know Gibson took an enormous hit financially, by intervention of the Federal Government, right or wrong, regardless of how one feels about Gibson or the Govt, OK?  It does not matter.  It was a huge blow.  

Whatever their market model was, they apparently never recovered from the loss.
that's an excuse and deflection. Obama or the government never forced Gibson into taking on massive debt and acquisitions they couldn't pay for. They f***ed themselves.

#34 Geddy Jazz

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Posted 18 March 2018 - 09:58 AM

I think :eh: they never adapted to modern era instrument making competitive world ( rest on their laurels) as other companies have done it.....and irresponsible debt aquisition...when 5 is turning the red lights on,  they let it grew up to 10 ( double the red zone mark!!)..... :codger:

#35 munk

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Posted 18 March 2018 - 10:46 AM

The Professor;

I figured someone might say it wasn't fair I'd introduced politics into the post about money troubles for Gibson.  I can't talk about politics here, right?  But I knew if I 'merely' posted they'd gotten in trouble with Justice over violation of a protection act, many would take that at face value and think worse of Gibson.  That's 'politics' also, by being passive. There was that, and knowing someonelse would come along and post and take the heat perhaps I should have. If I was 'cagey' that what I'd have done.

Like it or not; the 'bias' version is noted here because it exists and has a place.  Particularly as nothing had been mentioned in the thread about the issue.
That's about as honest as I can be in this forum.  Perhaps one day I'll have the requirements met, to talk with you in the political section.  Sincerely. There is little better than honorable debate about episodes and ideas.

Geddy Jazz, your post reminded me of the baseball star and the video game, Reckoning,  They too, overextended waay too soon and then got into political trouble also.

I can't remember the baseball star's name, he was a good guy,  He actually tried to hire the best talent, with the intention of building the best open world game ever.
I admired him, and I admire Gibson, and am sorry to see bad tiding for good intentions.  

I can't imagine a world without Gibson guitar, I don't want to imagine it, and I don't even play guitar.

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#36 HemiBeers

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Posted 18 March 2018 - 01:22 PM

View Postmunk, on 18 March 2018 - 10:46 AM, said:

The Professor;

I figured someone might say it wasn't fair I'd introduced politics into the post about money troubles for Gibson.  I can't talk about politics here, right?  But I knew if I 'merely' posted they'd gotten in trouble with Justice over violation of a protection act, many would take that at face value and think worse of Gibson.  That's 'politics' also, by being passive. There was that, and knowing someonelse would come along and post and take the heat perhaps I should have. If I was 'cagey' that what I'd have done.

Like it or not; the 'bias' version is noted here because it exists and has a place.  Particularly as nothing had been mentioned in the thread about the issue.
That's about as honest as I can be in this forum.  Perhaps one day I'll have the requirements met, to talk with you in the political section.  Sincerely. There is little better than honorable debate about episodes and ideas.

Geddy Jazz, your post reminded me of the baseball star and the video game, Reckoning,  They too, overextended waay too soon and then got into political trouble also.

I can't remember the baseball star's name, he was a good guy,  He actually tried to hire the best talent, with the intention of building the best open world game ever.
I admired him, and I admire Gibson, and am sorry to see bad tiding for good intentions.  

I can't imagine a world without Gibson guitar, I don't want to imagine it, and I don't even play guitar.

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Rather then reading your Peart-esque non-stop rambling, here's a link with some facts about the raid.

http://articles.lati...guitar-20140215

Points being:
Gibson was able to take advantage of the returned materials and sell them as special 'Government Series' instruments..at likely increased prices.
Gibson claimed the raid cost them $5m. Giving they could profit from the controversy and that they are a $1B company, the raid was chump change for a company that size (given an assumption it did cost them $5m...which I call bullshit).
"The National Assn. of Music Merchants supported Gibson, but not everyone was on the guitar maker's side during the controversy. Guitar maker C.F. Martin & Co. and wood distributor North American Wood Products spoke in support of the Lacey Act amendments, saying they help the environment and American companies." So if Martin and other manufacturers can adapt to regulations, why couldn't Gibson? Probably because Gibson took the known gamble on getting cheaper materials.

Any points about the raid damaging Gibson is total Bullshit. They f***ed themselves by poor management and overextending.

Edited by HemiBeers, 18 March 2018 - 01:33 PM.


#37 munk

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Posted 18 March 2018 - 02:12 PM

Professor, are you certain I won't get in trouble if I go into this?  I only have like 16 posts.  The Govt did not charge Gibson with a crime, for a year, or over a year,don't recall exactly, yet held their property. Does this sound like our constitutional republic to you?  When the Govt arrived to conduct business with Gibson, it was to kick in doors and weapons drawn.  Is this usual behavior for our Govt today?  I hope not.  I see you're comfortable dismissing the issue and accepting the Govt's prima facie position. I'm not. The Govt charged Gibson finally with violation not of American Law, but violating two other nation's own laws regarding export and import. Not only did these nations say this wasn't true, and had documentation, but other manufacturers successfully imported the same products.

I'm a libertarian, Professor, and I've been watching governmental abuse for decades.  It goes across party lines and is a disease threatening our representative government.  When the Govt screws up, Left, Right, Middle or in other dimension, I believe we should be able to see it.  What our Government did to Gibson was abuse of power under color of authority, probably denial of constitutional rights, and delivered to them a crippling financial blow.  It is fine with me you disagree.  It was important that folks know there were two sides to this issue, and that Gibson never really got over the Govt's actions.

This thread, populated by people fond of Gibson, (fair to say?) will miss Gibson if they go.  I don't mind speaking out, but won't participate should this thread become 'marred' by a political squall at the end of its pages.
I've squalled enough in life.  Really.


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#38 munk

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Posted 18 March 2018 - 02:32 PM

Sorry for this,but see one cannot edit posts, so this is a post script;  The 'violation' of foreign laws' were part of the investigation, but Gibson settled with the Govt over a violation of the 1900 Lacy Act.  Interestingly, the Lacy Act was amended two months before the raid, where supply-side reporting provisions were inserted, which changed the definition of, 'fingerboard blanks',by which Gibson was addressed by the federal govt.



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wow, you can edit posts...

munk.

Edited by munk, 18 March 2018 - 02:35 PM.


#39 stoopid

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Posted 19 March 2018 - 08:05 AM

"Montana"... they like conspiracies and doing what the f%^$ they want.  A lot of Trumplandia.

Edited by stoopid, 19 March 2018 - 08:05 AM.


#40 munk

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Posted 19 March 2018 - 08:40 AM

Really?  Montana is what happened to Gibson?  Trump happened to Gibson?

Montana is a liberal state.  Legislature, Courts and Governor.

It's like saying if you live in New York you enjoy polluting the Hudson, or perhaps a little afternoon mugging....

Edited by munk, 19 March 2018 - 08:49 AM.





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