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Ultimate Permanent Waves poll: Musically does this album belong to the 70's or 80's?


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Ultimate Permanent Waves poll: Musically does this album belongs to the 70's or 80's?  

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  1. 1. Ultimate Permanent Waves poll: Musically does this album belong to the 70's or 80's?



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One last thought, how many times have you heard "I grew up a huge Rush fan from when I first heard (fill-in-the-blank with pre-PeW album) but then (fill-in-the-blank with post-MP album) came out and it was like, WTF!?!... what happened to the band I loved!?!" Me, I can't remember how many times I've heard or read this.You even have people saying some form of it in Beyond the Lighted Stage. It's the ever-common refrain among people who grew up with '70s Rush.

 

On the other hand, how many times have you heard, "I grew up a huge Rush fan from (fill-in-the-blank with pre-PeW album) but then Permanent Waves came out and it was like, WTF!?!... what happened to the band I loved!?!" Me, never once.

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No one who think this is a 70’s album has a legitimate argument as to why this is. Ok it was recorded in 1979. No one in their right mind would argue that fact. Eagle

moon incorrectly states that the 80’s had a synth pop direction. That is arguable. Grace, Power Windows and HYF certainly have those elements but Presto arguably does not.

 

OK, legitimate argument. The 80s did not exist when this album was created so there’s no way it could belong to a decade where it wasn’t created. In hindsight it’s easy to look back and say it blended in well with the music created after it, but that just means all music is derivative. Always has been, always will be.

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No one who think this is a 70’s album has a legitimate argument as to why this is. Ok it was recorded in 1979. No one in their right mind would argue that fact. Eagle

moon incorrectly states that the 80’s had a synth pop direction. That is arguable. Grace, Power Windows and HYF certainly have those elements but Presto arguably does not.

 

OK, legitimate argument. The 80s did not exist when this album was created so there’s no way it could belong to a decade where it wasn’t created. In hindsight it’s easy to look back and say it blended in well with the music created after it, but that just means all music is derivative. Always has been, always will be.

 

But it's not like they couldn't have released it in 1979. I mean, if they thought it belonged in the 70s they would have (excuse the pun) rush-released it for December. But they waited... Until the first month of the dawning decade. A decade that was about new beginnings. "The 70s are done! Let's move away from prog, cut our hair and latch onto New Wave!" They were identifying it with newer bands. Everything up to that point had been built on past influences; this was the first built on contemporary ones.

Edited by Wil1972
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No one who think this is a 70’s album has a legitimate argument as to why this is. Ok it was recorded in 1979. No one in their right mind would argue that fact. Eagle

moon incorrectly states that the 80’s had a synth pop direction. That is arguable. Grace, Power Windows and HYF certainly have those elements but Presto arguably does not.

 

OK, legitimate argument. The 80s did not exist when this album was created so there’s no way it could belong to a decade where it wasn’t created. In hindsight it’s easy to look back and say it blended in well with the music created after it, but that just means all music is derivative. Always has been, always will be.

 

But it's not like they couldn't have released it in 1979. I mean, if they thought it belonged in the 70s they would have (excuse the pun) rush-released it for December. But they waited... Until the first month of the dawning decade. A decade that was about new beginnings. "The 70s are done! Let's move away from prog, cut our hair and latch onto New Wave!" They were identifying it with newer bands. Everything up to that point had been built on past influences; this was the first built on contemporary ones.

 

Hmmm. I'll have to chew on this for a while. Not sure about the influence thing - and roughly half the album is still proggy . . .

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No one who think this is a 70’s album has a legitimate argument as to why this is. Ok it was recorded in 1979. No one in their right mind would argue that fact. Eagle

moon incorrectly states that the 80’s had a synth pop direction. That is arguable. Grace, Power Windows and HYF certainly have those elements but Presto arguably does not.

 

OK, legitimate argument. The 80s did not exist when this album was created so there’s no way it could belong to a decade where it wasn’t created. In hindsight it’s easy to look back and say it blended in well with the music created after it, but that just means all music is derivative. Always has been, always will be.

 

But it's not like they couldn't have released it in 1979. I mean, if they thought it belonged in the 70s they would have (excuse the pun) rush-released it for December. But they waited... Until the first month of the dawning decade. A decade that was about new beginnings. "The 70s are done! Let's move away from prog, cut our hair and latch onto New Wave!" They were identifying it with newer bands. Everything up to that point had been built on past influences; this was the first built on contemporary ones.

 

Hmmm. I'll have to chew on this for a while. Not sure about the influence thing - and roughly half the album is still proggy . . .

 

True but the band themselves identified Spirit of Radio as the emblematic song on the album. It would only be one more album before those 10+ min tracks vanished.

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"True but the band themselves identified Spirit of Radio as the emblematic song on the album. It would only be one more album before those 10+ min tracks vanished."

 

So... what you're saying is, at the close of the '70s, Rush said, "We're done with the proggy Seventies, let's get back to the Sixities!" with shorter, sharper songs like TSoR with its upbeat but still classic rock riffs (with a nod to '70s-style reggae à la 1973's D'yer Mak'er thrown in)? Because in 1979 how would they be trying "to be '80s" when know one knew what the Eighties were going to be like? ;)

 

So maybe PeW isn't really a '70s album but is more of a '60s album, or maybe a combination. :eh: I don't hear much '80s in it though, no Human League, Duran Duran, the Fixx, etc., just a combination of prog and classic rock... but mostly prog, more prog than any Rush album apart from Hemispheres really. Far more prog than their first two albums for sure, and with CoS and 2112 being more "concept metal" than prog (I don't know if I just made that term up or if it's already been used somewhere), PeW is arguable Rush's most prog effort outside of side one of ATFK and Hemispheres.

 

Seriously though, I get both arguments, but however one sees it, it's a great album and for me, it really fits in the sub-decade of '78-'81, when what was considered New Wave -- The Cars, Blondie, Talking Heads -- is now played on classic rock stations. From '82 on, New Wave became "'80s music" and really sounded like a different thing on the whole. GUP, PoW and HYF definitely belong to that, whereas I'd put PeW, MP, and Signals in that transitional period.

Edited by Rutlefan
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"True but the band themselves identified Spirit of Radio as the emblematic song on the album. It would only be one more album before those 10+ min tracks vanished."

 

So... what you're saying is, at the close of the '70s, Rush said, "We're done with the proggy Seventies, let's get back to the Sixities!" with shorter, sharper songs like TSoR with its upbeat but still classic rock riffs (with a nod to '70s-style reggae à la 1973's D'yer Mak'er thrown in)? Because in 1979 how would they be trying "to be '80s" when know one knew what the Eighties were going to be like? ;)

 

So maybe PeW isn't really a '70s album but is more of a '60s album, or maybe a combination. :eh: I don't hear much '80s in it though, no Human League, Duran Duran, the Fixx, etc., just a combination of prog and classic rock... but mostly prog, more prog than any Rush album apart from Hemispheres really. Far more prog than their first two albums for sure, and with CoS and 2112 being more "concept metal" than prog (I don't know if I just made that term up or if it's already been used somewhere), PeW is arguable Rush's most prog effort outside of side one of ATFK and Hemispheres.

 

Seriously though, I get both arguments, but however one sees it, it's a great album and for me, it really fits in the sub-decade of '78-'81, when what was considered New Wave -- The Cars, Blondie, Talking Heads -- is now played on classic rock stations. From '82 on, New Wave became "'80s music" and really sounded like a different thing on the whole. GUP, PoW and HYF definitely belong to that, whereas I'd put PeW, MP, and Signals in that transitional period.

 

My comments are an attempt at simplifying the issue. But I think you get the gist of it. Its no secret Rush were, in 1979, being more influenced by Police, Talking Heads, and Boomtown Rats than Led Zeppelin.

Edited by Wil1972
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"I'd put PeW, MP, and Signals in that transitional period."

Yes... Transitioning away from the 70s. And they knew what the 80s were going to sound to a degree based on the New Wave movement.

 

And the reggae in Spirit of the Radio was IMO more Police influenced than Zep.

Edited by Wil1972
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"And the reggae in Spirit of the Radio was IMO more Police influenced than Zep". Agree, I was being tongue-in-cheek.

 

" Its no secret Rush were, in 1979, being more influenced by Police, Talking Heads, And Boomtown Rats and than Led Zeppelin." Sure, but there's the issue of inertia. PeW is still very proggy (Jacob's Ladder and Natural Science comprise nearly half its running time) and though "looking forward" no doubt, TSoR was still an FM AOR hit; no one at all was confusing Rush with New Wave. I was at the beginning of high school when PeW and MP came out, and the New Wave/Punk/Clash/etc. crowd LOATHED, despised and dismissed Rush as a pothead metal/'70s prog rock band, still. None of them that I knew thought PeW and MP in any way "redeemed" them. Outside of the metal/classic rock crowd, I was sort of a pariah (in terms of music taste) for liking Rush.Though PeW and MP expanded their listening base no doubt, it was still mainly the same people that liked, or came to like looking backwards, Hemi and 2112 that embraced those albums.

 

p.s. Funny thing about all those that loathed Rush during the PeW and MP period is that they loathed them based on what they had heard only from those albums; few of those people had heard anything from AFTK or Hemispheres, it was TSoR and Tom Sawyer that they considered ridiculous pothead dinosaur rock. I didn't agree of course, but that's what they largely thought, at least at my school.

Edited by Rutlefan
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"It sounds more like MP or Signals than it does AFTK or Hemispheres. It's an 80s album."

 

That's very debatable. It sounds to me an awful lot like side 2 of both AFTK and Hemi. Not much at all like Signals.

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It's an 80s album.

A van of thugs is on its way to your home. You will be sent to the “re-education camp” and released when your head is straight. Resistance is futile.

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"And the reggae in Spirit of the Radio was IMO more Police influenced than Zep". Agree, I was being tongue-in-cheek.

 

" Its no secret Rush were, in 1979, being more influenced by Police, Talking Heads, And Boomtown Rats and than Led Zeppelin." Sure, but there's the issue of inertia. PeW is still very proggy (Jacob's Ladder and Natural Science comprise nearly half its running time) and though "looking forward" no doubt, TSoR was still an FM AOR hit; no one at all was confusing Rush with New Wave. I was at the beginning of high school when PeW and MP came out, and the New Wave/Punk/Clash/etc. crowd LOATHED, despised and dismissed Rush as a pothead metal/'70s prog rock band, still. None of them that I knew thought PeW and MP in any way "redeemed" them. Outside of the metal/classic rock crowd, I was sort of a pariah (in terms of music taste) for liking Rush.Though PeW and MP expanded their listening base no doubt, it was still mainly the same people that liked, or came to like looking backwards, Hemi and 2112 that embraced those albums.

 

p.s. Funny thing about all those that loathed Rush during the PeW and MP period is that they loathed them based on what they had heard only from those albums; few of those people had heard anything from AFTK or Hemispheres, it was TSoR and Tom Sawyer that they considered ridiculous pothead dinosaur rock. I didn't agree of course, but that's what they largely thought, at least at my school.

 

Interesting perspective; but ultimately unrelated to whether or not Rush was influenced by those acts.

 

I never dismissed that PeW had proggy songs. My point was that Rush was no longer making that song form their focal point by that time. As I stated before they were moving away from it. MP contained one extended track. Does that make it a 70s album? After that, none. It was a gradual transition but a transition nonetheless.

Edited by Wil1972
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Where does this idea come from that the '70s, stylistically, were about extended songs so if an album is not characterized by extended songs it does not belong to the '70s? Most music made in the '70s was not prog and was not characterized by extended songs. Even most '70s Rush was made of shorter tracks; shorter than what you find on Vapor Trails or Clockwork Angels.

 

And Rush being influenced by "Police, Talking Heads, And Boomtown Rats" when making PeW? That was '70s music! Rush had not heard any of their '80s output in '79. This is what I find so baffling about this argument, you hold up those bands as '80s bands, but they started in the '70s, and it was their '70s material that influenced PeW (to the degree they were an influence). The '70s was a lot more than Yes, Genesis and Hemispheres.

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A lot of 70s Rush tunes are pretty long (well, 7 minutes or longer) . . . Here Again, Working Man, By-Tor, Fountain, Necromancer, 2112, Xanadu, Cygnus, Hemispheres, La Villa, Jacob's Ladder, Natural Science. And with maybe 3 or 4 exceptions, the whole catalogue rocked most excellently.

 

Permanent Waves is one final example of those characteristics.

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Where does this idea come from that the '70s, stylistically, were about extended songs so if an album is not characterized by extended songs it does not belong to the '70s? Most music made in the '70s was not prog and was not characterized by extended songs. Even most '70s Rush was made of shorter tracks; shorter than what you find on Vapor Trails or Clockwork Angels.

 

And Rush being influenced by "Police, Talking Heads, And Boomtown Rats" when making PeW? That was '70s music! Rush had not heard any of their '80s output in '79. This is what I find so baffling about this argument, you hold up those bands as '80s bands, but they started in the '70s, and it was their '70s material that influenced PeW (to the degree they were an influence). The '70s was a lot more than Yes, Genesis and Hemispheres.

 

 

Good points. But it's still an 80s album.

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Where does this idea come from that the '70s, stylistically, were about extended songs so if an album is not characterized by extended songs it does not belong to the '70s? Most music made in the '70s was not prog and was not characterized by extended songs. Even most '70s Rush was made of shorter tracks; shorter than what you find on Vapor Trails or Clockwork Angels.

 

And Rush being influenced by "Police, Talking Heads, And Boomtown Rats" when making PeW? That was '70s music! Rush had not heard any of their '80s output in '79. This is what I find so baffling about this argument, you hold up those bands as '80s bands, but they started in the '70s, and it was their '70s material that influenced PeW (to the degree they were an influence). The '70s was a lot more than Yes, Genesis and Hemispheres.

 

 

Good points. But it's still an 80s album.

 

Good points, Galileo. But the earth is still flat.

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Where does this idea come from that the '70s, stylistically, were about extended songs so if an album is not characterized by extended songs it does not belong to the '70s? Most music made in the '70s was not prog and was not characterized by extended songs. Even most '70s Rush was made of shorter tracks; shorter than what you find on Vapor Trails or Clockwork Angels.

 

And Rush being influenced by "Police, Talking Heads, And Boomtown Rats" when making PeW? That was '70s music! Rush had not heard any of their '80s output in '79. This is what I find so baffling about this argument, you hold up those bands as '80s bands, but they started in the '70s, and it was their '70s material that influenced PeW (to the degree they were an influence). The '70s was a lot more than Yes, Genesis and Hemispheres.

 

 

Good points. But it's still an 80s album.

 

Good points, Galileo. But the earth is still flat.

 

Haha! :-D

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I asked my mother all about this. She seemed very confused and tried avoiding an answer. I DEMANDED an answer. She said 80’s.

 

I reported her. I felt lousy while re-education camp thugs dragged her out of her home but it was the right thing to do.

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Where does this idea come from that the '70s, stylistically, were about extended songs so if an album is not characterized by extended songs it does not belong to the '70s? Most music made in the '70s was not prog and was not characterized by extended songs.

:goodone:

 

From 1979...Tubeway (featuring Gary Newman)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZF4Z6smOrZw

 

As synth as it gets. makes me wonder if divisions by decade are just false constructs...?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

;)

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Where does this idea come from that the '70s, stylistically, were about extended songs so if an album is not characterized by extended songs it does not belong to the '70s? Most music made in the '70s was not prog and was not characterized by extended songs. Even most '70s Rush was made of shorter tracks; shorter than what you find on Vapor Trails or Clockwork Angels.

 

And Rush being influenced by "Police, Talking Heads, And Boomtown Rats" when making PeW? That was '70s music! Rush had not heard any of their '80s output in '79. This is what I find so baffling about this argument, you hold up those bands as '80s bands, but they started in the '70s, and it was their '70s material that influenced PeW (to the degree they were an influence). The '70s was a lot more than Yes, Genesis and Hemispheres.

As prog as prog gets:

 

 

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That Tubeway Army vudeo is ace. When I first got into Rush I was playing AFTK all the time and my biggeer sis was in love and massively into Gary Numan. I've dug up his first 3 albums and play them frequently now - very good stuff.
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Where does this idea come from that the '70s, stylistically, were about extended songs so if an album is not characterized by extended songs it does not belong to the '70s? Most music made in the '70s was not prog and was not characterized by extended songs.

:goodone:

 

From 1979...Tubeway (featuring Gary Newman)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZF4Z6smOrZw

 

As synth as it gets. makes me wonder if divisions by decade are just false constructs...?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

;)

OK..but man is it repetitive.
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That Tubeway Army vudeo is ace. When I first got into Rush I was playing AFTK all the time and my biggeer sis was in love and massively into Gary Numan. I've dug up his first 3 albums and play them frequently now - very good stuff.

:ebert:
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