36 replies to this topic

[laughedatbytime]

Giancarlo Stanton, who has been on a HR tear lately, had some interesting comments which seemed to imply that he viewed Maris' 61 as the legitimate record   On the other hand, he knows that he (nor anyone else) has a chance to get 74, so there may be some bias there.  

So, what say you?    What do you view as the legit record?   And why?

Votes are public...

[Maverick]

Bonds, because I'm not racist.

[1-0-0-1-0-0-1]

Maris' stands up for me. The league decided to extend the season from 154 to 162 -- what are players supposed to do, stop hitting home runs after they've played 154 games?

Bonds' record doesn't count for me because he juiced -- how many of those HRs would have died on the warning track without pharmaceutical help? Same goes for McGwire and all the other juicers from that era. They cheated. Screw them.

[rocket ignites]

Bonds.  Because I've used the "cream and the clear"...didn't help me a bit.

[HemiBeers]

Without a doubt, Bonds, McGuire, Sosa, etc. would have got caught if there was more rigorous testing at the time. But they played within the rules that were in place...at...the...time.

Here's the thing about modern players and juicing. How do we know players of older eras, Maris, Mantle, Babe Ruth, etc....weren't 'juiced' on something as well? There wasn't any testing or oversight so they could have taken anything and gotten away with it.

It's very simple for me...you judge the players by the rules that were in effect at the time they played. Don't blame the players if the league was lax about their rules and testing. You only go to prison if you break a law. If there's no law, then it's legal. The End.

Edited by HemiBeers, 21 August 2017 - 07:07 PM.

[laughedatbytime]

Points for Bonds:

Bonds hit his HRs in a hugely difficult environment, Pac Bell.   Maris had the short porch (even shorter than after the renovation at Yankee Stadium in the 1970s).   Bonds faced much tougher pitching, with all kinds of relief specialists instead of tiring starters.   Maris hit his in an expansion year.   Bonds was intentionally walked 35 times and had 177 walks, Maris had 94 walks, none intentional.

Points for Maris:

Bonds cheated.   As did everyone else who cleared 61.   Maris wins.

[goose]

HemiBeers, on 21 August 2017 - 07:04 PM, said:

Without a doubt, Bonds, McGuire, Sosa, etc. would have got caught if there was more rigorous testing at the time. But they played within the rules that were in place...at...the...time.

Here's the thing about modern players and juicing. How do we know players of older eras, Maris, Mantle, Babe Ruth, etc....weren't 'juiced' on something as well? There wasn't any testing or oversight so they could have taken anything and gotten away with it.

It's very simple for me...you judge the players by the rules that were in effect at the time they played. Don't blame the players if the league was lax about their rules and testing. You only go to prison if you break a law. If there's no law, then it's legal. The End.

The old era players cheated plenty.  

What Bonds accomplished in his era was remarkable, not just for the homeruns, but for the walks as well.  That year, he was a force at the plate that hadn't been seen before.  It was truly remarkable to watch.

[Rick N. Backer]

A word about the "steroids weren't illegal until 2003 (or 2004, I'm not sure which it is said to be)" argument.  Baseball has ALWAYS prohibited the use of any drug for which a player does not have a valid prescription.  Steroids are a drug.  They are prescribed for certain conditions.  Using  them without a valid prescription has always been illegal.  Baseball didn't want to catch Sosa and McGwire and the others.  But that's different from saying what they did wasn't against the rules.

[goose]

laughedatbytime, on 21 August 2017 - 07:06 PM, said:

Points for Bonds:

Bonds hit his HRs in a hugely difficult environment, Pac Bell.   Maris had the short porch (even shorter than after the renovation at Yankee Stadium in the 1970s).   Bonds faced much tougher pitching, with all kinds of relief specialists instead of tiring starters.   Maris hit his in an expansion year.   Bonds was intentionally walked 35 times and had 177 walks, Maris had 94 walks, none intentional.

Points for Maris:

Bonds cheated.   As did everyone else who cleared 61.   Maris wins.

That makes no sense to me.  But...whatever.  Great points highlighting what Bonds was able to do.



ETA:  Bonds was hitting against juiced pitchers.

Edited by goose, 21 August 2017 - 07:20 PM.

[laughedatbytime]

goose, on 21 August 2017 - 07:19 PM, said:

laughedatbytime, on 21 August 2017 - 07:06 PM, said:

Points for Bonds:

Bonds hit his HRs in a hugely difficult environment, Pac Bell.   Maris had the short porch (even shorter than after the renovation at Yankee Stadium in the 1970s).   Bonds faced much tougher pitching, with all kinds of relief specialists instead of tiring starters.   Maris hit his in an expansion year.   Bonds was intentionally walked 35 times and had 177 walks, Maris had 94 walks, none intentional.

Points for Maris:

Bonds cheated.   As did everyone else who cleared 61.   Maris wins.

That makes no sense to me.  But...whatever.  Great points highlighting what Bonds was able to do.

Yep, Bonds was well clear of everyone else.

It's not like he won a bunch of championships in the ultimate team sport by 3 pts or in OT...

ETA:  Shit, I thought I was replying to RNB....  

Edited by laughedatbytime, 21 August 2017 - 07:22 PM.

[goose]

Rick N. Backer, on 21 August 2017 - 07:19 PM, said:

A word about the "steroids weren't illegal until 2003 (or 2004, I'm not sure which it is said to be)" argument.  Baseball has ALWAYS prohibited the use of any drug for which a player does not have a valid prescription.  Steroids are a drug.  They are prescribed for certain conditions.  Using  them without a valid prescription has always been illegal.  Baseball didn't want to catch Sosa and McGwire and the others.  But that's different from saying what they did wasn't against the rules.

So, would you hold that standard for other non-prescribed meds that players took?  Painkillers, amphetamines, etc?

[goose]

laughedatbytime, on 21 August 2017 - 07:21 PM, said:

goose, on 21 August 2017 - 07:19 PM, said:

laughedatbytime, on 21 August 2017 - 07:06 PM, said:

Points for Bonds:

Bonds hit his HRs in a hugely difficult environment, Pac Bell.   Maris had the short porch (even shorter than after the renovation at Yankee Stadium in the 1970s).   Bonds faced much tougher pitching, with all kinds of relief specialists instead of tiring starters.   Maris hit his in an expansion year.   Bonds was intentionally walked 35 times and had 177 walks, Maris had 94 walks, none intentional.

Points for Maris:

Bonds cheated.   As did everyone else who cleared 61.   Maris wins.

That makes no sense to me.  But...whatever.  Great points highlighting what Bonds was able to do.

Yep, Bonds was well clear of everyone else.

It's not like he won a bunch of championships in the ultimate team sport by 3 pts or in OT...

And we're off...

[laughedatbytime]

goose, on 21 August 2017 - 07:19 PM, said:

laughedatbytime, on 21 August 2017 - 07:06 PM, said:

Points for Bonds:

Bonds hit his HRs in a hugely difficult environment, Pac Bell.   Maris had the short porch (even shorter than after the renovation at Yankee Stadium in the 1970s).   Bonds faced much tougher pitching, with all kinds of relief specialists instead of tiring starters.   Maris hit his in an expansion year.   Bonds was intentionally walked 35 times and had 177 walks, Maris had 94 walks, none intentional.

Points for Maris:

Bonds cheated.   As did everyone else who cleared 61.   Maris wins.

That makes no sense to me.  But...whatever.  Great points highlighting what Bonds was able to do.



ETA:  Bonds was hitting against juiced pitchers.

At least Roger was still in the AL throwing broken bats at baserunners at the time...

[laughedatbytime]

goose, on 21 August 2017 - 07:21 PM, said:

laughedatbytime, on 21 August 2017 - 07:21 PM, said:

goose, on 21 August 2017 - 07:19 PM, said:

laughedatbytime, on 21 August 2017 - 07:06 PM, said:

Points for Bonds:

Bonds hit his HRs in a hugely difficult environment, Pac Bell.   Maris had the short porch (even shorter than after the renovation at Yankee Stadium in the 1970s).   Bonds faced much tougher pitching, with all kinds of relief specialists instead of tiring starters.   Maris hit his in an expansion year.   Bonds was intentionally walked 35 times and had 177 walks, Maris had 94 walks, none intentional.

Points for Maris:

Bonds cheated.   As did everyone else who cleared 61.   Maris wins.

That makes no sense to me.  But...whatever.  Great points highlighting what Bonds was able to do.

Yep, Bonds was well clear of everyone else.

It's not like he won a bunch of championships in the ultimate team sport by 3 pts or in OT...

And we're off...

Sorry, I thought you were someone else...

[HemiBeers]

Rick N. Backer, on 21 August 2017 - 07:19 PM, said:

A word about the "steroids weren't illegal until 2003 (or 2004, I'm not sure which it is said to be)" argument.  Baseball has ALWAYS prohibited the use of any drug for which a player does not have a valid prescription.  Steroids are a drug.  They are prescribed for certain conditions.  Using  them without a valid prescription has always been illegal.  Baseball didn't want to catch Sosa and McGwire and the others.  But that's different from saying what they did wasn't against the rules.

well if baseball didn't want to catch them, then, in effect, there was no rule.

[Rick N. Backer]

laughedatbytime, on 21 August 2017 - 07:24 PM, said:

goose, on 21 August 2017 - 07:21 PM, said:

laughedatbytime, on 21 August 2017 - 07:21 PM, said:

goose, on 21 August 2017 - 07:19 PM, said:

laughedatbytime, on 21 August 2017 - 07:06 PM, said:

Points for Bonds:

Bonds hit his HRs in a hugely difficult environment, Pac Bell.   Maris had the short porch (even shorter than after the renovation at Yankee Stadium in the 1970s).   Bonds faced much tougher pitching, with all kinds of relief specialists instead of tiring starters.   Maris hit his in an expansion year.   Bonds was intentionally walked 35 times and had 177 walks, Maris had 94 walks, none intentional.

Points for Maris:

Bonds cheated.   As did everyone else who cleared 61.   Maris wins.

That makes no sense to me.  But...whatever.  Great points highlighting what Bonds was able to do.

Yep, Bonds was well clear of everyone else.

It's not like he won a bunch of championships in the ultimate team sport by 3 pts or in OT...

And we're off...

Sorry, I thought you were someone else...

Yes.  It's a complete coincidence that he is the only player on all 5 SB winning teams.  It's a complete coincidence that in 36 and 38 he led the team to the winning field goal in the closing minutes of the 4th quarter.  It's a complete coincidence that he closed a 14 point gap to one of the historically great defenses in 49.   It's a complete coincidence that his team was down 28-3 and won a Super Bowl in February.

How come none of the other "teams" have had as much success this century as his?

[HemiBeers]

you can't tell me that babe ruth would've taken anything if he was told it would give him an advantage. that guy did anything he wanted and destroyed his body. same with mantle.

remember ruth was the first guy busting HRs in large numbers...so was he gifted or juiced?

we'll never know it, but we automatically give his numbers a pass.

Edited by HemiBeers, 21 August 2017 - 07:37 PM.

[laughedatbytime]

HemiBeers, on 21 August 2017 - 07:35 PM, said:

you can't tell me that babe ruth would've taken anything if he was told it would give him an advantage. that guy did anything he wanted and destroyed his body. same with mantle.

we'll never know it, but we automatically give his numbers a pass.

He used his balls too much to want them to shrivel up that badly.

[Rick N. Backer]

But you're right.  It's a team game.  In the two SBs he narrowly lost, he left the field near the end of the 4th quarter with his team ahead.  He wasn't out there when the Giants drove the field and scored the game winning touchdowns.

[laughedatbytime]

Rick N. Backer, on 21 August 2017 - 07:34 PM, said:

laughedatbytime, on 21 August 2017 - 07:24 PM, said:

goose, on 21 August 2017 - 07:21 PM, said:

laughedatbytime, on 21 August 2017 - 07:21 PM, said:

goose, on 21 August 2017 - 07:19 PM, said:

laughedatbytime, on 21 August 2017 - 07:06 PM, said:

Points for Bonds:

Bonds hit his HRs in a hugely difficult environment, Pac Bell.   Maris had the short porch (even shorter than after the renovation at Yankee Stadium in the 1970s).   Bonds faced much tougher pitching, with all kinds of relief specialists instead of tiring starters.   Maris hit his in an expansion year.   Bonds was intentionally walked 35 times and had 177 walks, Maris had 94 walks, none intentional.

Points for Maris:

Bonds cheated.   As did everyone else who cleared 61.   Maris wins.

That makes no sense to me.  But...whatever.  Great points highlighting what Bonds was able to do.

Yep, Bonds was well clear of everyone else.

It's not like he won a bunch of championships in the ultimate team sport by 3 pts or in OT...

And we're off...

Sorry, I thought you were someone else...

Yes.  It's a complete coincidence that he is the only player on all 5 SB winning teams.  It's a complete coincidence that in 36 and 38 he led the team to the winning field goal in the closing minutes of the 4th quarter.  It's a complete coincidence that he closed a 14 point gap to one of the historically great defenses in 49.   It's a complete coincidence that his team was down 28-3 and won a Super Bowl in February.

How come none of the other "teams" have had as much success this century as his?

I'm gonna let this go for now.  I'm sure there are other better contexts where this discussion is appropriate and I doubt we'll have to wait too long for it to come up.