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Territories Discussion


Wil1972
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Not to be too provocative, but... Why is Patriotism a good thing? What would be the harm if people weren't patriotic? I don't think Neil is just talking about going to war over a piece of dirt. There is that, but so much more too. This thing you say: "Patriotism for one's country is a good thing" seems like just one of those things that people say because they have heard it over and over. Why is it a good thing? What does the world look like without Patriotism? Is it a worse place? Why would it be? These are the questions posed in this song and they are important to ask oneself.

 

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patriotism

[pey-tree-uh-tiz-uh m or, esp. British, pa-]

noun

devoted love, support, and defense of one's country; national loyalty.

 

The above definition is from dictionary.com, none of the above exclude or preclude thinking for one's self or mindlessly waving a flag. Pride of place. This is a classic circular argument. I could ask you why it could be considered a bad thing. The question has the smell of modern open mindedness about it where everything is ok as long as you don't actually believe in anything. I love my country, I love my state and where I'm from...yet I don't brush aside their faults.

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I have always found the notion that one's nation is in any way superior to be offensive to me as a human being,

 

Ok. Go live in some third world shíthole and let me know if you think if Canada or Sweden or America isn't a superior country.

 

People as individuals all share equal dignity yet some cultures and countries are clearly inferior others in basic terms of living conditions, safety, etc.

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Not to be too provocative, but... Why is Patriotism a good thing? What would be the harm if people weren't patriotic? I don't think Neil is just talking about going to war over a piece of dirt. There is that, but so much more too. This thing you say: "Patriotism for one's country is a good thing" seems like just one of those things that people say because they have heard it over and over. Why is it a good thing? What does the world look like without Patriotism? Is it a worse place? Why would it be? These are the questions posed in this song and they are important to ask oneself.

 

.

 

patriotism

[pey-tree-uh-tiz-uh m or, esp. British, pa-]

noun

devoted love, support, and defense of one's country; national loyalty.

 

The above definition is from dictionary.com, none of the above exclude or preclude thinking for one's self or mindlessly waving a flag. Pride of place. This is a classic circular argument. I could ask you why it could be considered a bad thing. The question has the smell of modern open mindedness about it where everything is ok as long as you don't actually believe in anything. I love my country, I love my state and where I'm from...yet I don't brush aside their faults.

 

I consider Patriotism generally to be a bad thing because it automatically values the arbitrary place you are from over the other and therefor, as Mosher so eloquently put it "It allows for people to choose NOT to help others, or to assume others are somehow different, somehow driven by motivations other than basic human motivations". It creates false rivalries and a sense that one place or group of people is somehow better than the other. It inherently creates inequalities. Who am I? Am I Canadian? That is my passport. Am I Portuguese? That is where I was born and lived my entire teenage life. Am I American? I live here now and am a permanent resident. How does this colour me? Where and why should I feel Patriotic about? What service does it provide me or the world to love any or all of these places above others? Patriotism is often a tool used to motivate populous to do things on the behalf of a nation that it would not otherwise do. There is no question that in that form it is a force of evil, but when is it ever a force of good?

 

 

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Edited by diatribein
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More of a criticism on blind Patriotism than anything else I believe, especially from the perspective of someone who holds citizenship in various places (citizen of the world).

 

As someone who has Canadian and EU citizenship (born in Portugal, child in Canada, teenager in Portugal, young adult in the UK & Canada) and now a permanent resident in the US, I can totally relate with this song. Patriotism often manifests itself as small provincial thinking that effectively stifles intellectualism and progressive ideas. The concept of provincialism and the dumbing down of thought to fit a locale or system is a theme on Power Windows that is discussed from a few angles (Grand Designs, Middletown Dreams, Territories, and the influence of capitalism in this theme in The Big Money). Remember, Neil lived for almost 2 years in London after high school and by1985 had travelled through much of the world. Living in more than one culture gives you perspectives not afforded to someone who has spent their entire life living (tourism does not count) in one country and absorbing all the rhetoric associated with that locale.

 

I like Neil's thinking on this song (and album) a lot. For me Power Windows is his first lyrical masterpiece. From this point on many more of the lyrics would be socially conscious, thoughtful and insightful. My connection to the band became so much stronger once Neil started voicing so much of what I was feeling. I love these lyrics.

 

My interpretation:

If you consider yourself a Patriot ask yourself why? What is it that makes you think this country you pledge allegiance to is better than any other place?

 

 

For me Patriotism is earned, not a given. My explanation is inherently political, so I don't want to go into it here. I will say though, that I actively rooted against Canada from 2006 to 2015 and felt no connection to my fellow Canadians during that period. It has changed recently and I am missing my home at a time when we are doing so much good.

 

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Good thoughts and I too saw it as condemning blind patriotism. I try to be a person who takes pride in the accomplishments and successes of my country but I also try to point out where we can improve. I see nothing wrong with being proud of my country. But I do understand that, like individuals, our countries have pluses and minuses and highs and lows. But I would think that patriotism in and of itself would not be a bad thing if it comes from a good place. I love my country and feel fortunate to be born here. Yet I know others in parts of this world are less fortunate and we should realize this. Also I feel there are countries we can learn from and we should realize this as well.

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I have always found the notion that one's nation is in any way superior to be offensive to me as a human being,

 

Ok. Go live in some third world shíthole and let me know if you think if Canada or Sweden or America isn't a superior country.

 

People as individuals all share equal dignity yet some cultures and countries are clearly inferior others in basic terms of living conditions, safety, etc.

 

I think it's obvious I'm not talking about systems of government or political agendas and rather talking about the essence of what it means to be Eritrean vs. Laotian vs. Mongolian vs. Polish vs. Argentinian vs. American.

 

If that's not obvious, then I assure you that I am not talking about the political agendas of a given nation nor the relative quality of the leaders.

Kim and his sycophants, for example, are inferior to Trudeau and his. But North Koreans are equal to Canadians.

 

Perhaps someone can still disagree, but that's what I'm talking about.

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I love Territories, especially the heavier CA Tour version. It's a criminally underrated Rush tune that deserved more live exposure.
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This was Neil when he first realized that he, as a rock god, was above everything and could chastise the lower forms of life for waging wars. My God! He went to England for a few years and couldn't catch on with a rock band! Well...hell! I think it tells you something that the closest he got to describing war was a pilot dropping a bomb from 20,000 feet and flying out of the shockwave!!! The horror!!!

But I do love the song...if that counts?

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"In different circles we keep holding our ground"

 

Notice how in the written lyrics the second time this is sung in each chorus, it is spelled indifferent circles. So Neil is giving that line more than one meaning.

Brilliant!

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"In different circles we keep holding our ground"

 

Notice how in the written lyrics the second time this is sung in each chorus, it is spelled indifferent circles. So Neil is giving that line more than one meaning.

Brilliant!

Maybe. Until you consider "indifferent circles we keep holding our ground..." makes no sense whatsoever..
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"In different circles we keep holding our ground"

 

Notice how in the written lyrics the second time this is sung in each chorus, it is spelled indifferent circles. So Neil is giving that line more than one meaning.

Brilliant!

Maybe. Until you consider "indifferent circles we keep holding our ground..." makes no sense whatsoever..

 

Well, possibly Neil is saying that "indifferent circles we keep holding our ground," that war makes no sense whatsoever! :D

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"In different circles we keep holding our ground"

 

Notice how in the written lyrics the second time this is sung in each chorus, it is spelled indifferent circles. So Neil is giving that line more than one meaning.

Brilliant!

Maybe. Until you consider "indifferent circles we keep holding our ground..." makes no sense whatsoever..

 

Are you sure?

 

I took it to mean people being so indifferent about the world that they don't go anywhere. They stay where they are without any interest or curiosity about the world around them

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"In different circles we keep holding our ground"

 

Notice how in the written lyrics the second time this is sung in each chorus, it is spelled indifferent circles. So Neil is giving that line more than one meaning.

Brilliant!

Maybe. Until you consider "indifferent circles we keep holding our ground..." makes no sense whatsoever..

 

Well, possibly Neil is saying that "indifferent circles we keep holding our ground," that war makes no sense whatsoever! :D

Then it should be "In indifferent circles..." I think it was "In different circles" all the way. Either way, a great Rush song. And no Neil-post-modern lyric could ever ruin that killer bass line!
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"In different circles we keep holding our ground"

 

Notice how in the written lyrics the second time this is sung in each chorus, it is spelled indifferent circles. So Neil is giving that line more than one meaning.

Brilliant!

Maybe. Until you consider "indifferent circles we keep holding our ground..." makes no sense whatsoever..

 

Are you sure?

 

I took it to mean people being so indifferent about the world that they don't go anywhere. They stay where they are without any interest or curiosity about the world around them

And no. I am in no way sure! Isn't this fun?

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If Neil wants to write, he should put out a book of his lyrics and what they mean to him. I bet it would sell.
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I can give you a sample: "I had just pulled my bike over after a grueling 10 hour ride. I watched the common man come and go at this -I could best describe it as a coffee shop- when I realized how many commoners like this must be out there! These idiots have no idea what is being done to them as far as foreign relations, the environment, hell..anything! But I've learned everything while touring with the band that put me on the map (although I associate with them as little as possible). By God, I am an expert on religion, environment (especially trees) and athieism, I believe I will write a few songs about my opinions that they can't help but notice. Like a mallet to the head."
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"In different circles we keep holding our ground"

 

Notice how in the written lyrics the second time this is sung in each chorus, it is spelled indifferent circles. So Neil is giving that line more than one meaning.

Brilliant!

Maybe. Until you consider "indifferent circles we keep holding our ground..." makes no sense whatsoever..

 

Are you sure?

 

I took it to mean people being so indifferent about the world that they don't go anywhere. They stay where they are without any interest or curiosity about the world around them

 

Pretty sure. In any case, what you are saying is also another meaning of what Neil is saying too. As often, Neil's lyrics can be interpreted many ways or mean different things. One of the greatest things about Neil's lyrics is that they get the listener and reader thinking (presuming they are listening and/or reading!) and can mean different things to different people. And most of his lyrics are indeed very thought provoking. And educational. I cannot think of any lyricist who has taught me so much about so many things more than Neil.

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"In different circles we keep holding our ground"

 

Notice how in the written lyrics the second time this is sung in each chorus, it is spelled indifferent circles. So Neil is giving that line more than one meaning.

Brilliant!

Maybe. Until you consider "indifferent circles we keep holding our ground..." makes no sense whatsoever..

 

Are you sure?

 

I took it to mean people being so indifferent about the world that they don't go anywhere. They stay where they are without any interest or curiosity about the world around them

 

Pretty sure. In any case, what you are saying is also another meaning of what Neil is saying too. As often, Neil's lyrics can be interpreted many ways or mean different things. One of the greatest things about Neil's lyrics is that they get the listener and reader thinking (presuming they are listening and/or reading!) and can mean different things to different people. And most of his lyrics are indeed very thought provoking. And educational. I cannot think of any lyricist who has taught me so much about so many things more than Neil.

True. But sometimes the whole, "Looking down my nose at the common man" vibe rubs me the wrong way. That could be a result of reading his published work more so than his Rush lyrics.
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"In different circles we keep holding our ground"

 

Notice how in the written lyrics the second time this is sung in each chorus, it is spelled indifferent circles. So Neil is giving that line more than one meaning.

Brilliant!

Maybe. Until you consider "indifferent circles we keep holding our ground..." makes no sense whatsoever..

 

Are you sure?

 

I took it to mean people being so indifferent about the world that they don't go anywhere. They stay where they are without any interest or curiosity about the world around them

 

Pretty sure. In any case, what you are saying is also another meaning of what Neil is saying too. As often, Neil's lyrics can be interpreted many ways or mean different things. One of the greatest things about Neil's lyrics is that they get the listener and reader thinking (presuming they are listening and/or reading!) and can mean different things to different people. And most of his lyrics are indeed very thought provoking. And educational. I cannot think of any lyricist who has taught me so much about so many things more than Neil.

True. But sometimes the whole, "Looking down my nose at the common man" vibe rubs me the wrong way. That could be a result of reading his published work more so than his Rush lyrics.

 

Yeah, people have had that opinion before. However, as you know I am sure Power Windows came out way before any of his books did.

 

What in his published work has given you that vibe? Not arguing at all with you. Just curious. Thanks!

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I've always loved the "in different circles" and "indifferent circles" word play. Loved it so much I stole the concept for a song I wrote...here's the relevant lyric

 

"It's our differences that unite us/the only difference is what's inside"

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It's about misplaced pride and how it divides us.

 

This verse say's it all:

 

 

They shoot without shame

In the name of a piece of dirt

For a change of accent

Or the color of your shirt

Better the pride that resides

In a citizen of the world

Than the pride that divides

When a colorful rag is unfurled

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